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| PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map (1309350) | |
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| (1309350) | |
PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014  Stewart Mader, a social media consultant, has drawn up a proposal to change how PATH (and New Jersey) is displayed on the main subway map. He argues that PATH is a rapid transit system (should we tell him?) and should be shown as one. It doesn't look half bad. |
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| (1309352) | |
Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 25 17:37:56 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. PATH does not deserve that indignity.The traditional depiction is just fine. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Aug 25 17:47:53 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. It may be a rapid transit system, but it is a distinct system with separate fares and transfers. Some people might benefit from having the additional information available, but at least as many people would also get confused. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Aug 25 18:02:00 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. excellent!chud1. :).... |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 25 18:38:09 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. People would then expect one every 10 minutes. On weekends, you'll wait 15 (sat) 20 (sun) - 35 minutes. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Allan on Mon Aug 25 18:47:24 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. Someone should tell him that that blue color is reserved for the T. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 19:13:21 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. Subway or Railroad, it doesn't make a difference.It's not part of the Subway. It's not part of the MTA. Why should it be on MTA maps? |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Andy on Mon Aug 25 19:16:37 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. Good idea. Just modify how it crosses the #1 line because on this map it looks like there is PATH station there too.Perhaps change the PATH designation to a heavy dashed black line to differentiate from the NYC subway. Also need to change PATH's northernmost station to 33rd St/ |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 25 20:09:43 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. why should it be?its not part of our system..nor is it a "subway" in NYCT terms.. |
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| (1309411) | |
Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 22:02:32 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. Just sent him a very long message and tried to not sound too condisiending.You have probably been deluged by some of my less socially developed fellow transit buffs with corrections, but I feel I must ad my voice. The thing is the linchpin of your argument is incorrect. New York City has only one subway system. And this isn't me bad mouthing PATH or New Jersey, but it's the fact that, contrary to any and all outward appearances, the PATH system is not a subway. It is not a rapid transit line, at all. It never has been. Strictly speaking the current depiction on the subway map as a commuter railroad is the correct depiction because, well that's exactly what it is. PATH is actually a railroad. During World War One, the United States government noticed an issue in getting the railroads to work together for the cause. So, for the duration, the Feds set up the "United States Railroad Administration", America's first major experiment in nationalization. Prior to this event, there was no distinction between Rapid Transit and Railroads. The used to run together no problem. In fact, Long Island Rail Road trains used to use a now demolished ramp in East New York, travel on the tracks of what is today the J train, over the Williamsburg Bridge to terminate at Chambers Street. If you look to the left as a northbound J leave during the week from the eastern most track, you can see the cut outs in the wall that were provisioned for extra terminal tracks. Anyway, when the government nationalized the railroads, they didn't want to have to go into the local transit business at the same time. So, they declared a legal separation between rapid transit lines and railroad lines, a separation that exists to this day. PATH, back in it's early H&M tube days, shared a large stretch of it's tracks with the Pennsylvania Railroad, and continued to do so until 1961. the PRR's original New York area terminal was Exchange Place in Jersey City, after Penn station opened in 1910, the station remained in use for local commuter trains until 1961. From where PATH exits the tunnels east of Journal Square all the way to Newark, H&M trains shared tracks and stations with PRR trains to and from that terminal, most of which were trains that would now be considered North Jersey Coast Line. (The PRR was an investor in the H&M, and bought the line roughly half it's mid 20th century rolling stock, the classic "K cars"). Because what is now PATH remained connected for so long, it remained regulated by the federal government's railroad regulations. First it was overseen by the Interstate Commerce Commission, which was eventually replaced in the mid 1960s with the Federal Railroad Administration or the "FRA". Meanwhile, the Subway and networks like it are regulated by the Federal Transit Administration[FTA]). As part of being an FRA regulated railroad, PATH must hire FRA qualified locomotive engineers to drive their trains, not simple "Train Operators" like on the subway. It's rolling stock is registered as mainline railroad equipment. Each car, because all are powered, is considered a locomotive, and each must undergo all inspections given to Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit or Amtrak locomotives. I direct you to this article from Bloomberg BusinessWeek, specifically the second page. It discusses PATH's nature and how it's regulations effect it's ability to effectively provide transportation. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-08-22/path-train-less-efficient-than-subways-as-cars-cover-loss ----------------------------- "Federal Railroad Administration regulations, higher maintenance costs and round-the-clock service have boosted spending compared with other transit systems, Port Authority officials say. A major difference between PATH and the New York subway system is that the trans-Hudson rail is regulated by the FRA while the Federal Transit Administration oversees the subway. The FRA imposes stricter safety standards and labor requirements, imposing higher costs, Port Authority officials said. Before each run, PATH workers must test a train’s air brakes, signals and acceleration, Mike Marino, PATH’s deputy director, said in a telephone interview. When a train gets to its terminus, workers repeat the test. In addition, every 90 days all of PATH’s rail cars undergo a three-day inspection at a facility in Harrison, New Jersey. Brakes, lights, communications, heating and air conditioning, signals and odometers are all checked, Marino said. “It’s a very intense inspection on every piece of rolling stock,” he said. Although the Port Authority has tried to switch its regulator to the Federal Transit Administration, the FRA has opposed a switch for safety reasons, Marino said. PATH runs parallel to high-speed trains operated by NJ Transit, Amtrak and freight-line CSX Corp." --------------------------------------- I would also like to cite this report by the National Transportation Safety Board in reaction to the 2011 collision between a PATH train and the bumping block at Hoboken. http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/RAR1205.pdf Now, on another note, as to depicting New Jersey in any fashion on the subway map, it's just unnecessary. The subway doesn't go there and there is no land attachment like there is to Westchester or Nassau county. First of all using the subway map for surface way finding is not exactly an ideal situation. The size and shape of the city is slightly distorted for the sake of clarity. In the past, the information present was outright wrong. On the Vignelli map , 50th Street Station on the IRT Broadway-7th ave Line was switched with 50th Street Station on the IND Eight Ave Line. 50th/8th is supposed to be west of 50th/Broadway, not the other way round as the map depicts. Grand Street station on the B and D is about a block and a half from Bowery Station on the J. That map show's it on the Manhattan Bridge in the middle of the East River. If they want guidance, they can just buy an actual street map or just use their smart phone if they've got one. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Aug 25 22:35:08 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. Since it doesn't accept Unlimited Metrocard, it doesn't belong on the NYC subway map. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 25 23:04:32 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 22:02:32 2014. Uncalled for. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 25 23:04:59 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Aug 25 22:35:08 2014. Huh? That makes no sense. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 23:13:54 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 25 23:04:32 2014. I say perfectly called for. He made a mistake, I corrected him.You do it all the time... He based his entire argument around an incorrect fact. Like I told him, PATH is show as a commuter Railroad cause that's what it is. The Map is technically correct, he's wrong. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 25 23:35:30 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 23:13:54 2014. Your are technically correct. But to the rider, PATH looks like a subway, acts like a subway . . therefore . . . |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 25 23:36:31 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 25 23:35:30 2014. They even take Metrocards. :) |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 25 23:36:57 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. FWIW, the official SEPTA map shows the full PATCO system. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 26 00:03:28 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 25 23:35:30 2014. Shares rights of way with other railroads like a sub-- oh, wait. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 26 00:06:27 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 26 00:03:28 2014. Shares 6th Avenue with the IND. :) |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Aug 26 00:08:30 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 25 20:09:43 2014. why should it be?Because it's a critical part of the region's transit network? |
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| (1309440) | |
Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Aug 26 03:17:09 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Aug 26 00:08:30 2014. But it's not part of the Transit Authority's network, it's something else all together.This is like demanding that Disney World map's show Universal Orlando. They are both critical to Central Florida's economy, and both are theme parks, but other than that... |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Aug 26 03:30:45 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 25 23:36:57 2014. Well, PATCO is actually a rapid transit line, and the Locust Street subway is technically leased BSS tunnel. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Aug 26 04:01:17 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Tue Aug 26 03:17:09 2014. But it's not part of the Transit Authority's network, it's something else all together.Berlin U-Bahn and S-Bahn have different owners, BVG and DB respectively, yet somehow, the concept of leaving the other off the map is seen as silly. The notion that we should only have an "MTA map" with MTA services is rather silly, especially when the bus maps in Queens listed the private bus lines on the NYCTA maps when they operated. I just don't see the need to pretend that PATH doesn't exist just because it goes to that place where "dragons may be" and has "train engineers" in lieu of train operators on what are essentially smaller versions of an R-160. As far as I'm concerned, it's the subway to Hoboken, Jersey City, and Newark. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Aug 26 04:05:24 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Tue Aug 26 03:30:45 2014. PATCO is actually a rapid transit lineBut if PATCO had the same headways, but was FRA controlled, we'd magically keep it off the map? |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 26 05:26:31 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Aug 26 04:05:24 2014. Eh? It'd be on the map as a connecting route, just like PATH is on the NYC subway map. Nothing magical about that. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by LA Scott on Tue Aug 26 07:10:43 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 26 00:03:28 2014. From the point of view of a casual observer, The N shares ROW with a railroad. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by merrick1 on Tue Aug 26 07:18:26 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 22:02:32 2014. Kind of pedantic. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 07:30:44 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 23:13:54 2014. Nope. What mistake? PATH is rapid transit from the customer's perspective and pretty much from the industry perspective as well. It's only the less socially adept like you who would even bring up the points you made in the context of this guy's proposal. There may be perfectly valid arguments against doing what he proposes to do but your silly arguement isn't one of them! I only correct real mistakes. He did not make a real mistake. It's all in your head. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 26 07:33:03 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 22:02:32 2014. I've made some corrections.You have probably been deluged by some of my less socially developed fellow transit buffs with corrections, but I feel I must Without the proofreader's marks: You have probably been deluged by some of my less socially developed fellow transit buffs with corrections, but I feel I must add my voice. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 07:39:52 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 26 07:33:03 2014. Why bother? His point is moot anyhow. He's just wasting the guy's time. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 26 07:48:19 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Aug 26 04:01:17 2014. There is no pretending that PATH doesn't exist. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by SubwaySurf on Tue Aug 26 08:07:11 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by merrick1 on Tue Aug 26 07:18:26 2014. Insults railfans too. So much for not being condescending. SMH |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Aug 26 08:22:27 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 25 23:04:59 2014. You are totally wrong!!!! BrooklynTrain is totally right!!!!!! |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 08:25:44 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Aug 26 08:22:27 2014. You are totally wrong!!!! BrooklynTrain is totally right!!!!!!Wrong again, Dan Lawrence. Why are you almost always wrong, Dan Lawrence? PATH is ALREADY on the NYC Subway map, so how could it be correct that ii "doesn't deserve to be on there?" You're an idiot. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:40:15 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 26 07:33:03 2014. YES! Thank you. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:43:06 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Tue Aug 26 03:30:45 2014. Yet PATH and PATCO are largely identical from a commuter perspective. If someone asked me what PATCO is, I'd call it the "Philadelphia-equivalent of PATH" and make no other points about differences between them unless asked. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 08:45:41 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:43:06 2014. Yep |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:46:05 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Aug 25 22:35:08 2014. Time to remove Airtrain JFK, the LIRR and MN within city limits and the ferries other than the SI ferry.Also note that the RI Tram has been depicted on the map since before it started taking the unlimited ride MetroCard. Further, the modern map (i.e. including buses at major interchanges and the entire SIR) predates the unlimited ride MetroCard, so it can't possibly be based on that. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 08:46:31 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:46:05 2014. LOL! Thanks! |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:48:56 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Aug 26 04:01:17 2014. The typical passenger doesn't really give a shit which authority runs what. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Aug 26 09:28:12 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:48:56 2014. IAWTP. PATH may be regulated as a railroad, but passengers think of it as a separate limited-scope subway system. It's at least as important to the average subway passenger as the JFK Airtrain or the M60 bus is. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by localacrosstheplatform on Tue Aug 26 10:12:22 2014, in response to PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Kriston Lewis on Mon Aug 25 17:26:18 2014. Fine idea, but not particularly useful unless he finds some way of depicting (at least!) the weekday service patterns of PATH -- i.e., which trains go where in which routes.I think this concept (adding PATH to the subway map) will become a near necessity if and when the PATH extension to EWR ever comes to fruition. For that matter, if they're going to do this now, it's worth noting NJT service to EWR on the map (even if it's not "depicted"). And yes, I realize there's a limit to how much the subway map can reasonably be expected to depict. I'm not always sure where the limit is myself. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:20:38 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 07:30:44 2014. There you, one again proving you are an idiot and should not be involved in adult conversations.PATH is not a transit authority line, why should it be depicted on a transit map equally? Simple answer is it shouldn't. It's depicted on the map exactly as it should be, exactly what it is. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:25:47 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 08:43:06 2014. "Commuter perspective" in this case = not being honest about what you are.For many years, the Bridge line was operated as a branch of the Broad Street line. The H&M never had a working relationship with the IRT, BRT/BMT or IND. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:26:10 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 08:45:41 2014. You and your stupid one word answers... |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:28:02 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 07:39:52 2014. No, the guy is wasting our time by proposing a change to the map that serves no real purpose. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 10:29:06 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:20:38 2014. It is a transit line. The manner of its internal operation is moot regarding something that is intended for consumption by common passengers. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:30:25 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Aug 26 08:25:44 2014. Doesn't deserve to be show as a subway line.Since it isn't. |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 10:31:36 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:25:47 2014. "Commuter perspective" in this case = not being honest about what you are.Who cares? For many years, the Bridge line was operated as a branch of the Broad Street line. The H&M never had a working relationship with the IRT, BRT/BMT or IND. Who cares? |
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Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 26 10:32:46 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The silence on Tue Aug 26 10:28:02 2014. How is he wasting our time? You could have ignored it, but instead you put way too much thought into it. |
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