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Posted by
R36 #9346
on Tue Aug 26 07:33:03 2014, in response to Re: PATH Deserves To Be On the Subway Map, posted by The Silence on Mon Aug 25 22:02:32 2014.
edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I've made some corrections.You have probably been deluged by some of my less socially developed fellow transit buffs with corrections, but I feel I must ad add my voice.
The thing is the linchpin of your argument is incorrect. New York City has only one subway system. And This isn't me badmouthing PATH or New Jersey, but it's the fact is that, contrary to any and all outward appearances, the PATH system is not a subway. It is not a rapid transit line, at all. It never has been.
Strictly speaking, the its current depiction on the subway map as a commuter railroad is the correct depiction because, well that's exactly what it is.; PATH is actually a railroad.
During World War One, the United States government noticed an issue in getting the railroads to work together for the cause. So, for the duration, tThe Feds set up the "United States Railroad Administration,", America's first major experiment in nationalization. Prior to this event, there was no distinction between Rapid Transit and Railroads. They used to run together no problem. In fact, Long Island Rail Road trains used to use a now demolished ramp in East New York, travel on the tracks of what is today the J train, over the Williamsburg Bridge to terminate at Chambers Street. If you look to the left as a northbound J leaves Chambers Street during the week from the eastern most track, you can see the cut outs in the wall that were provisioned for extra terminal tracks.
Anyway, w When the government nationalized the railroads, they didn't want to have to go into the local transit business at the same time. They therefore declared a legal separation between rapid transit lines and railroad lines., a This separation that exists to this day.
PATH, back in it's early H&M tube days, shared a large stretch of it's tracks with the Pennsylvania Railroad, and continued to do so until 1961. the PRR's original New York area terminal was Exchange Place in Jersey City,. After Penn Station opened in 1910, the station Exchange Place remained in use for local commuter trains until 1961. From where PATH exits the tunnels east of Journal Square all the way to Newark, H&M trains shared tracks and stations with PRR trains to and from that terminal Exchange Place, most of which were trains that would now be considered run on what is now the North Jersey Coast Line. (The PRR was an investor in the H&M, and bought the line roughly half it's mid-20th century rolling stock, the classic "K cars").
Because what is now PATH remained connected for so long, it remained regulated by the federal government's railroad regulations. First it was overseen by the Interstate Commerce Commission, which was eventually replaced in the mid-1960s with the Federal Railroad Administration, or the "FRA". Meanwhile, the Subway and networks like it are regulated by the Federal Transit Administration_[FTA]).
As part of being an FRA-regulated railroad, PATH must hire FRA-qualified locomotive engineers to drive their trains, not simple "Train Operators" like on the subway. It's rolling stock is registered as mainline railroad equipment. Each car, because all are powered, is considered a locomotive, and each must undergo all inspections, like those given to Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit, or Amtrak locomotives.
I direct you to this article from Bloomberg BusinessWeek, specifically the second page. It discusses PATH's nature and how it's regulations eaffect it's ability to effectively provide transportation.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-08-22/path-train-less-efficient-than-subways-as-cars-cover-loss
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I would also like to cite this report by the National Transportation Safety Board, in reaction to the a 2011 collision between a PATH train and the bumping block at Hoboken.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/RAR1205.pdf
Now, On another note, as to depicting New Jersey in any fashion on the subway map, it's is just unnecessary. The subway doesn't go there and there is no land attachment like there is to Westchester or Nassau county.
First of allUsing the subway map for surface way finding is not exactly an ideal situation. The size and shape of the city is slightly distorted for the sake of clarity. In the past, the information present was outright wrong. On the Vignelli map, introduced in 1972, the 50th Street Station on the IRT Broadway-7th Ave Line was switched with the 50th Street Station on the IND Eighth Ave Line. 50th/8th is supposed to be west of 50th/Broadway, not the other way round as the map depicts. The Grand Street station on the B and D is about a block and a half from the Bowery Station on the J. That map show's it on the Manhattan Bridge in the middle of the East River.
If they people want guidance, they can just buy an actual street map or just use their smartphone if they've got have one.
Without the proofreader's marks:You have probably been deluged by some of my less socially developed fellow transit buffs with corrections, but I feel I must add my voice.
The linchpin of your argument is incorrect. New York City has only one subway system. This isn't me badmouthing PATH or New Jersey, but the fact is that, contrary to any and all outward appearances, the PATH system is not a subway. It is not a rapid transit line at all. It never has been.
Strictly speaking, its current depiction on the subway map as a commuter railroad is correct because that's exactly what it is; PATH is actually a railroad.
During World War One, the United States government noticed an issue in getting the railroads to work together for the cause. The Feds set up the "United States Railroad Administration," America's first major experiment in nationalization. Prior to this, there was no distinction between Rapid Transit and Railroads. They used to run together. In fact, Long Island Rail Road trains used to use a now demolished ramp in East New York, travel on the tracks of what is today the J train, over the Williamsburg Bridge to terminate at Chambers Street. If you look to the left as a northbound J leaves Chambers Street during the week from the eastern most track, you can see the cut outs in the wall that were provisioned for extra terminal tracks.
When the government nationalized the railroads, they didn't want to have to go into the local transit business at the same time. They therefore declared a legal separation between rapid transit lines and railroad lines. This separation exists to this day.
PATH, back in it's early H&M tube days, shared a large stretch of its tracks with the Pennsylvania Railroad, and continued to do so until 1961. the PRR's original New York area terminal was Exchange Place in Jersey City. After Penn Station opened in 1910, Exchange Place remained in use for local commuter trains until 1961. From where PATH exits the tunnels east of Journal Square all the way to Newark, H&M trains shared tracks and stations with PRR trains to and from Exchange Place, most of which were trains that would run on what is now the North Jersey Coast Line. The PRR was an investor in the H&M, and bought the line roughly half its mid-20th century rolling stock, the classic "K cars."
Because what is now PATH remained connected for so long, it remained regulated by the federal government's railroad regulations. First it was overseen by the Interstate Commerce Commission, which was eventually replaced in the mid-1960s with the Federal Railroad Administration, or the "FRA". Meanwhile, the Subway and networks like it are regulated by the Federal Transit Administration [FTA].
As part of being an FRA-regulated railroad, PATH must hire FRA-qualified locomotive engineers to drive their trains, not simple "Train Operators" like on the subway. Its rolling stock is registered as mainline railroad equipment. Each car, because all are powered, is considered a locomotive, and each must undergo all inspections, like those given to Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit, or Amtrak locomotives.
I direct you to this article from Bloomberg BusinessWeek, specifically the second page. It discusses PATH's nature and how its regulations affect its ability to effectively provide transportation.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-08-22/path-train-less-efficient-than-subways-as-cars-cover-loss
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"Federal Railroad Administration regulations, higher maintenance costs and round-the-clock service have boosted spending compared with other transit systems, Port Authority officials say.
A major difference between PATH and the New York subway system is that the trans-Hudson rail is regulated by the FRA while the Federal Transit Administration oversees the subway. The FRA imposes stricter safety standards and labor requirements, imposing higher costs, Port Authority officials said.
Before each run, PATH workers must test a train’s air brakes, signals and acceleration, Mike Marino, PATH’s deputy director, said in a telephone interview. When a train gets to its terminus, workers repeat the test.
In addition, every 90 days all of PATH’s rail cars undergo a three-day inspection at a facility in Harrison, New Jersey. Brakes, lights, communications, heating and air conditioning, signals and odometers are all checked, Marino said.
“It’s a very intense inspection on every piece of rolling stock,” he said.
Although the Port Authority has tried to switch its regulator to the Federal Transit Administration, the FRA has opposed a switch for safety reasons, Marino said. PATH runs parallel to high-speed trains operated by NJ Transit, Amtrak and freight-line CSX Corp."
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I would also like to cite this report by the National Transportation Safety Board, in reaction to a 2011 collision between a PATH train and the bumping block at Hoboken.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/RAR1205.pdf
On another note, depicting New Jersey in any fashion on the subway map is just unnecessary. The subway doesn't go there and there is no land attachment like there is to Westchester or Nassau county.
Using the subway map for surface way finding is not exactly an ideal situation. The size and shape of the city is slightly distorted for the sake of clarity. In the past, the information present was outright wrong. On the Vignelli map, introduced in 1972, the 50th Street Station on the IRT Broadway-7th Ave Line was switched with the 50th Street Station on the IND Eighth Ave Line. 50th/8th is supposed to be west of 50th/Broadway, not the other way round as the map depicts. The Grand Street station on the B and D is about a block and a half from the Bowery Station on the J. That map shows it on the Manhattan Bridge in the middle of the East River.
If people want guidance, they can buy an actual street map or just use their smartphone if they have one.
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