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| Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? (1265107) | |
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| (1265107) | |
Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Hoosac on Thu Dec 19 13:19:19 2013 Back in 1955, I lived for about a year in Ozone Park. My parents and I rode the Fulton Street El quite a lot. It was in its final days; the connection that would send the A train to Lefferts Blvd was under construction (and so was the connection to the former LIRR Rockaway branch).We used to take the El from 111th St to Atlantic Ave, and then transfer to the 14th Street line. Lately, I have been looking for pictures and other info about the way Atlantic Ave looked then. I have found that at the time the station had 3 island platforms, and 6 tracks. As I recall, the transfer from the inbound Fulton St train to the city-bound 14th St line just involved crossing a platform. I have found an old video of Roger Arcara's that seems to confirm this. I don't remember clearly, but I think the transfer going the other way, from the Canarsie-bound 14th Street train to the Lefferts-bound El, was also just across a platform. I don't remember going up and down stairs to get from one train to the other. This would seem to indicate that only two of the platforms were in use. So what was the third platform for? I'm guessing its purpose dates back to the early days of the El, and it was no longer needed by '55. Does anyone have more info? |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 19 14:47:55 2013, in response to Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Hoosac on Thu Dec 19 13:19:19 2013. The BRT Fulton Street Elevated line (from downtown Brooklyn and the Manhattan via the Brooklyn Bridge) was a three track that met what is called the "L" train today at Atlantic Avenue, and then continued on its journey to Lefferts Blvd. The Atlantic Avenue station was a massive elevated junction to allow the movement of trains between the 14th Street subway (to/from Manhattan), the Brooklyn Broadway line (via today's J-train tracks to/from Manhattan), both to/from the Canarsie segment, both to/from the Lefferts Blvd segment. There were various switching tracks, as well as track access to/from the East New York train yard.Description: At the extremely old Atlantic Avenue station (say 1940) there were six tracks, two tracks with middle platform for out-bound L-train and Fulton local trains. Two tracks with middle platform - next to the previously mentioned set of tracks. Until fairly recently, the Manhattan bound L-train upon leaving Sutter Avenue would take a wild swing along Snedicker Avenue to meet up with the Manhattan bound local track of the Fulton Street level = two tracks with middle platform. Since 1956 - when last remaining section of the Fulton Street EL line (that existed on Fulton Street) was abandoned) the trackway of this abandoned track could clearly be seen. Why 6 tracks? Think of if as an "in and out" problem. The L-train provided 2 tracks (in and out), the Fulton line provided three tracks (in and out). So where did the sixth track come from. Simple - it could have came from the middle track or the Manhattan bound local track, for extra capability and/or flexibility. There were various switch tracks between those lines, and there was a need for direct train both to and from the train yard. One of the middle tracks could also have been used as a layup or storage track between the stations. In any case here are some pictures of the three tracks of the Fulton Street EL both before and after the Atlantic Avenue station, that may help to understand what used to be there: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?116180 http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?87578 http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?70525 http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?113450 http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?116181 The Hinsdale Avenue station was the station immediately past the Atlantic Avenue station headed toward Lefferts Blvd. Here one can see that 4 four tracks are being created on the Fulton Street line. Notice the setting of the switch in the photo. http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6595 http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?130195 Two stops away from Hinsdale AVenue was the Van Siclen station, notice that there are two tracks. The same could be said for the Linwood Avenue station, the next station away. http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26432 http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26430 The PDF of the BRT elevated lines may also help explain some of the services that were offered then. http://images.nycsubway.org/maps/bmt_1931.pdf Hopefully somebody can point to a detailed track map to help answer your questions. Mike |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 19 16:27:16 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 19 14:47:55 2013. We had this discussion here before, complete with a concise explanation.All six tracks were used actively before 1940. No storage. The explanation was pretty close to this: <--- 14th Street from Pitkin [[[[ PLATFORM ]]]] <--- 14th Street from Canarsie <--- Fulton Street Local to Park Row [[[[ PLATFORM ]]]] <--- Fulton Street Expresses ---> from Fulton or 14th St. Local to Pitkin ---> [[[[ PLATFORM ]]]] 14th Street Line to Canarsie ---> |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Randyo on Thu Dec 19 16:42:07 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 19 16:27:16 2013. The outside K2 track on the Snediker Av potion of the structure was the one that was used by Fulton Lcls to Park Row and Sands St, The Manhattan bound tk on the portion closest to Van Sinderin Av was the one used by 14 St/Fulton trains. Various permutations of the Bway Bkln Lcl used the other tracks at various times especially rush hours. Bway Bkln lcls coming from Canarsie used the same track that the 14 St lcls used but took the switch between Atl and E/Pky to access the Bway Bkln Line. The rest of the description is pretty accurate although I suspect that Fulton expresses were probably crossed over to the local track between Rocky and Atl Aves to provide an easier transfer between 14 St trains and Fulton trains since all the Fulton trains made all stops past Atl. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Dec 19 19:18:45 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 19 16:27:16 2013. Thanks for that! While the new alignment is definitely an improvement, I did enjoy the hugeness of the full size station. And 5 of the 6 tracks were still usable until the shrinking project. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 19 19:49:00 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 19 16:27:16 2013. Which tracks did the Canarsie/Broadway Brooklyn trains use? |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 19 19:52:40 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 19 16:27:16 2013. I remember asking this question and getting that answer.http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=1132164 |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 20 05:58:22 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 19 19:52:40 2013. Thanks for remembering where that discussion was. My answer then was better because I had the track diagram in front of me. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Hoosac on Fri Dec 20 12:33:36 2013, in response to Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Hoosac on Thu Dec 19 13:19:19 2013. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for the information. In the future, I will do a search before posing questions that have already been answered.It occurs to me that there is a wealth of valuable history on this board, if it could be organized and categorized somehow. Don't know how it could be done, but if it could...wow. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Dec 20 14:26:40 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 19 16:27:16 2013. Linked.1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  BMT 1931 |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Fri Dec 20 14:38:46 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Dec 20 14:26:40 2013. How far were the standards allowed to run on the Pikin ave section? |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 15:36:16 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by seabeachexpress on Fri Dec 20 14:38:46 2013. Standards and other subway cars could use the center storage track, just west of Hinsdale Ave station. There have been pics posted here previously, showing just that! |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 20 15:37:59 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Hoosac on Fri Dec 20 12:33:36 2013. Actually, not every word of history written here is absolute gold, but a lot of choice tidbits do appear that would be hard to find elsewhere online.So yes, "someone" should keep track of some of these. Who? Me? You? NotchIt (Larry)? Pigs was good enough to remember the earlier thread, but that doesn't mean he should have to do it either. I wonder if there's some kind of E-Z tagging script that would let any number of us look at specific posts and mark it, say "Atlantic Avenue Junction" or "Culver Depot" or whatever. I wonder if there's a way to use #hashtags. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 20 15:40:11 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 15:36:16 2013. And as noted, it was a dead end track. When you ran out of that track you also ran out of the structure capable of supporting subway weight equipment. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 15:44:16 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 20 15:37:59 2013. Don't hesitate to ask questions!. We need new members, here. I, for one, welcome inquiries from new people, even if the topic had been discussed several times. Also, try hitting "Simple Search' and follow the instructions. You might get your answers from there, too. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 15:47:30 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 20 15:40:11 2013. At one time, it was the eastbound track for Hinsdale. What was the regular outside eastbound track originally served the old Alabama Ave Yard, before it was shut down and the tracks modified. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Hoosac on Fri Dec 20 16:30:14 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 20 15:37:59 2013. Oh yeah, I can see where it would be a hell of a lot of work to pull together something like this, but I'd like to be part of it if there were any interest. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Dec 20 16:51:02 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 15:47:30 2013. it was known as "AO" YARD. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 16:57:17 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Dec 20 16:51:02 2013. ""10-4, S- Sam, K- King!!!" |
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| (1265323) | |
Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Dec 20 17:28:09 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 19 19:49:00 2013. Same one as those coming to/from Rockaway Parkway---switches were north of the station. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by chud1 on Fri Dec 20 17:57:01 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Dec 20 14:26:40 2013. A+ on these pictures.chud1. :).... |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Dec 20 18:02:42 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Dec 20 17:28:09 2013. Manhattan bound Bway Bkln lcls used the same track at Atlantic as 14 St Line trains did. Canarsie bound Bway Bkln lcls used the Fulton St El S/B lcl tk K1 in the station and crossed over to P1 tk S/O the station. NYCsubway.org has a photo of a Bway Bkln lcl of R-16s coming into Atlantic. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 20 20:37:18 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 20 15:40:11 2013. It's odd the BMT never fully rebuilt the section between Hinsdale and Grant Ave. Even if any dream of connecting the Fulton St. el to the subway at Dekalb Ave was dead, it still could have been used as a branch of the 14th St line, or as the logical extension of the Broadway Brooklyn local. It might even be standing today. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 21:18:51 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 20 20:37:18 2013. I think it was probably due to money. The City built the Lefferts extension, but the older piece, between Atlantic and Grant, would have to have been built by the BRT. After third tracking the Fulton el, between Utica and ENY and upgrading and connecting the Canarsie line to Atlantic Ave and Broadway Jct, in 1919, there probably was little left for Pitkin Ave. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Dec 20 21:36:53 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 21:18:51 2013. As I have mentioned before in threads on this subject, as part of a total dual contract package, a new station at Willy B plaza was to have been constructed along with the relocation of the Fulton St el tracks in downtown Bkln west of Boerum Pl off Fulton St and onto Adams St. The BRT and the PSC were haggling over who would pay for the last 2 projects and the PSC refused to finance any further rebuilding of the Fulton St el until that issue was resolved which, of course, it wasn't. Had the entire Fulton St el end to end been upgraded to hold steel cars, the rapid transit picture in Bkln would have been quite different. Even if the Fulton St El were not connected to the 4 Av Subway at Ashland Pl as was planned, it probably would have been connected to the IND subway somewhere in downtown Bkln. after unification. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 21 03:32:45 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Dec 20 14:26:40 2013. Amazing stuff.Today, I would look at rebuilding the unused platform next to the active one at Atlantic Avenue that then could be used to short-turn some (L) trains that then could focus on the busier section of the 14th Street line (west of Broadway Junction) while also allowing for some Broadway-Brooklyn service to go to Atlantic Avenue or Rockaway Parkway. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Dec 21 03:38:34 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 15:44:16 2013. Agreed, the "simple search" works decently. Not everything that comes up may be relevant to what you are looking for, but a good portion of the results probably will be.Attempting to boil titles or descriptions down to discrete categories often won't work or will be misleading. For example, when I first saw the title of this thread, I expected it to be about the separate local and express platforms on the IRT at Atlantic and Flatbush. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Dec 21 05:53:38 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 21 03:32:45 2013. Definitely they should restore at least one track in the former center platform. It could allow Bway-Bklyn K locals to be rurned, restoring express service Marcy-BJ. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 21 08:01:23 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Sat Dec 21 05:53:38 2013. Definitely along the lines of what I was thinking.I'd also rebuild the tracks along Snediker Avenue that would in this case mainly be for storage and to allow for a couple of (L) runs to begin and end at Broadway Junction. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sat Dec 21 08:15:51 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 21 03:32:45 2013. I can see how short turns provide empty trains for people at the inner end of the line during the morning rush but I don't see how they help in the other direction. Most people take the first train that comes.I used to work at Columbia Presbyterian at 168th Street on the 1 train. If a 137th Street train came first I would take it. Sometimes they would extend a 137th Street train. If not, everyone would get off at 137th Street and wait for the next train. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Dec 21 09:08:01 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by merrick1 on Sat Dec 21 08:15:51 2013. I used to work at Columbia Presbyterian at 168th Street on the 1 train. If a 137th Street train came first I would take it. Sometimes they would extend a 137th Street train. If not, everyone would get off at 137th Street and wait for the next train.That's just good common sense. "A train in the station is worth two on the road." Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 21 16:13:37 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 21 08:01:23 2013. This time, I agree with you 100%! |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by jabrams on Sat Dec 21 19:07:02 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 19 16:27:16 2013. My solution (that I stated previously) was to leave all the tracks as is between Atlantic and Bway Junction. Just reroute the Manhattan bound L train to the fourth track instead of the 2nd track (from the west). Now you have spent less money, and still have a set of express platforms and layup tracks available. The Sneidker L section will still be torn down. We really don't need a cross platform transfer between the uptown and downtown L trains (let them appear as locals in an express station. Bway trains can terminate at Atlantic without blocking L trains, and L trains can terminate there in either direction (of course making passengers wait for another train for one stop is not as good as the crossover added north of Bway Junction.On an unrelated note, is the crossover from the center track between Myrtle and Halsey still connected to the Canarsie bound track, allowing for a N/B train to terminate at Myrtle and then go back to Canarsie without having to relay on the center track and wrong rail into Myrtle. |
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Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Dec 22 11:33:02 2013, in response to Re: Why were there 3 platforms at Atlantic Ave?, posted by jabrams on Sat Dec 21 19:07:02 2013. In theory I agreed with this....but still would need go maintain a completely extra platform....all st the least used station in all of Brooklyn |
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