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| (1181375) | |
Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012 I read something that after the el was torn down south of 155st that the city wanted to connect the end of the Lenox line to the el stub end and run 7ave/lenox trains to the Woodlawn line but the thing that stopped it was the tunnel from Sedgwick to Anderson was built for El car widths with uncovered 3rd rail. not wide enough for subway cars. Since it was built in 1918 that was very poor planning by the dual contracts. If this is so why did they have polo grounds on the roll signs of the R12's if they couldn't fit in the tunnel? |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:03:39 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. Not sure Jerome Ave needed the service. Would have been nice to see service to the two el stations, though.Now, connecting Lenox to the old 3rd Ave el would have been a much better idea. But that would've required a massive upgrade to this entire line. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 16 12:04:33 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. The cars had to be the same width as normal subway cars, since they stopped at the same platforms at 167th St. The third rail being incompatible is possible. Hard to believe that there wouldn't be room in the tunnel for subway-style third rail, but maybe that could be. The height of the tunnel might also be a factor, were subway cars taller than el cars? |
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| (1181384) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:15:12 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 16 12:04:33 2012. Also, Low-V's were used in the 1950's, until the end. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 12:27:03 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. from Wikipedia:The tunnel from Sedgwick Ave to Anderson – Jerome Avenue was built to NYC Elevated Railway standards. Those standards specified the clearance between the tracks and the sides of the tunnel only allowed for the "El" type open third rail instead of the covered third rail in use on the IRT Subway. The standard distance from the center of the track to the center of the El type open third rail-head is a few inches shorter than the distance to the subway type covered third rail-head. Thus, this design (flaw) prevented the line from being used in the future by standard IRT Subway equipment, and brought about the line's demise instead of being linked to the IRT Lenox Avenue Line at 148th St in Manhattan, which had been proposed by the NYC Board of Transportation in 1940. |
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| (1181387) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:31:01 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 12:27:03 2012. It could have been converted if there was the will. Cheaper to abandon it because the Concourse line parallels it. |
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| (1181389) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 12:37:38 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:31:01 2012. Makes sense but it would have given riders from 7th ave line an alt. route instead of having to take the 2 to 149st/GC and change to the 4. The problem with the concourse line is that is a longer ride up 8th ave. |
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| (1181391) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:54:00 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 12:37:38 2012. The Jerome Ave line is pretty much at capacity. Any loss of it to 7th Ave trains affects the whole Lexington Ave express. |
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| (1181397) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Oct 16 13:31:07 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 12:27:03 2012. Where in Wikipedia does that appear? I'd like some outside source as this is fishy. What became the shuttle was built later than the 9th Avenue el and well into the Dual Contract era. It makes no sense that it was built to a standard that wouldn't take IRT subway third rail. What on the IRT has/had tighter clearance than the Steinway Tunnel, which was built for trolley cars?And the "connect it to the Lenox Avenue Line" sounds like so much wishful thinking. Source for that? |
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| (1181400) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Asgard on Tue Oct 16 13:56:46 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:54:00 2012. I assume the 7th Avenue trains would have taken the paths of the former el trains on Jerome. |
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| (1181401) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 16 14:01:28 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:31:01 2012. Yeah.Widening the tunnel at track level by a few inches would certainly have been possible, but perhaps quite labor-intensive. And the IND certainly provided a faster route to the west side. When I lived in the area as a kid, we always took the IRT to the east side, and the "Independent" to the west side. |
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| (1181403) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 14:14:19 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 16 14:01:28 2012. And once the Polo Grounds closed, there was really no need for the extra service to the area. IIRC, that line's usage dropped 70% after the Giants left. |
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| (1181405) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 14:29:43 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. I think LoVs (ie, subway cars) ran on the Polo Grounds Shuttle. IF that's true, there couldn't have been any trouble with the Sedgewick Avenue tunnel.. Most likely the BoT and Ta just couldn't come up with the $$ to connect the El stub to the subway. Once the Giants departed, there was even less incentive to do so. |
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| (1181406) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 14:30:47 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:15:12 2012. OK...I KNEW it (sort of). I made my post before I read yours, but now there's 2 of us saying this... |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 16 15:16:01 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 14:14:19 2012. IIRC, that line's usage dropped 70% after the Giants left.Another killer was the demise of the Putnam Line. |
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| (1181417) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by BMT Standard on Tue Oct 16 15:18:30 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 14:29:43 2012. I don't think that LoVs ever ran on the Polo Grounds shuttle. From 1940 to about 1950, Composites were used. After that, a few HiVs with modified third rail shoes ran on the shuttle. |
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| (1181430) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 15:39:37 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:15:12 2012. Actually, when I rode the line in the early 1950s, it used Hi-Vs including some Gibbs and deck roofers. Towards the very end it used Steinways. |
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| (1181431) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 15:41:49 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by BMT Standard on Tue Oct 16 15:18:30 2012. Towards the very end Steinways were used. |
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| (1181434) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 15:51:12 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by SLRT on Tue Oct 16 13:31:07 2012. Even though it was built during the dual contract era, the IRT deliberately had it built to clear only el type 3rd rail since the 9 Av El structure was the oldest and weakest of all the Manhattan els and couldn't even support the weight of composites. The reason that composites and other IRT steel cars were able to go into 155 St was because the 155 St station was reenforced to accommodate NYCRR cars which initially ran across the bridge into Manhattan to facilitate transfer to the 6 and 9 Av els. After the tunnel was built 6 and 9 Av expresses rah through to Jerome and the NYC Putnam Div terminates at the Sedgwick Av station of the IRT. As for the connection to the Lenox Line, it was planned to connect the Lenox Line via a ramp in 148 St Yd to the former 9 Av Line which would probably have required extensive rebuilding of the portion of the 9 Av structure to be used. I have heard that a scale model of the area with its connecting structure was built and put on display somewhere but I don't have all the details about where. |
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| (1181435) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 15:58:21 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 14:29:43 2012. As it existed, the usefulness of the Polo Grounds Shuttle diminished with the departure of the NY Giants in 1957, however, the use by the NY Titans (now Jets) football team and the NY Mets in 1962 could possibly have mad e the line useful if it had been kept up a little longer. Even wit the demolition of the Polo Grounds, the line as part of a through service from Jerome to Lenox and 7 Av would have been extremely useful as an alternative for Jerome passengers who need west side service. It also would have provided an alternate means of routing in the event of service disruptions on either 7 Av or Lex since Woodlawn and Lenox trains could have been rerouted. |
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| (1181437) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 16:02:41 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:54:00 2012. It wouldn't have an any more of an impact on Jerome service than the presence of 7 Av service on the West Farms line since #5 service runs on the same headway as Jerome. It might have even allowed an express service on Jerome since 7 Av trains could have run express between Burnside and 167 where they could smoothly divert to the Polo Grounds structure. |
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| (1181438) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 16:03:02 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 14:29:43 2012. As it existed, the usefulness of the Polo Grounds Shuttle diminished with the departure of the NY Giants in 1957, however, the use by the NY Titans (now Jets) football team and the NY Mets in 1962 could possibly have mad e the line useful if it had been kept up a little longer. Even wit the demolition of the Polo Grounds, the line as part of a through service from Jerome to Lenox and 7 Av would have been extremely useful as an alternative for Jerome passengers who need west side service. It also would have provided an alternate means of routing in the event of service disruptions on either 7 Av or Lex since Woodlawn and Lenox trains could have been rerouted. |
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| (1181440) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 16:18:41 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 15:41:49 2012. Either way, subway cars used the line... |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 16:19:05 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 16:03:02 2012. Good points... |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Oct 16 16:23:31 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by BMT Standard on Tue Oct 16 15:18:30 2012. yes they did,I rode them in 1958. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Oct 16 16:50:09 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. Sea Beach: Subway could and did run on the Polo Grounds Shuttle though I believe that they had modified third rail shoes. One of the stories given out at the time was that the regular type subway third rail shoes would not clear the tunnel walls. I think that the bigger obstacle to extending the Lenox Avenue Line was the Putnam Bridge over the Harlem River. It was built 1881 and was steam powered.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Oct 16 16:53:53 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Oct 16 16:50:09 2012. they cut the subway/el shoes so that they could clear the tunnel walls. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 17:33:57 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by tunnelrat on Tue Oct 16 16:23:31 2012. Actually, they were Steinways. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 16 17:39:33 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Oct 16 12:04:33 2012. It wasn't the car width, it was the necessary setback for subway type third rail. Walls needed to be wider for that. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 16 17:40:25 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 12:27:03 2012. Whoops ... shoulda read here first. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 18:01:05 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Oct 16 16:50:09 2012. Well, these don't seem to have been insurmountable problems...if the will and money had been there, this could have been done. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 18:11:02 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 16:18:41 2012. With modified shoes for use with elevated third rail. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Oct 16 18:44:03 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. Well, it doesn't matter any more, as the new Yankee Stadium blocks the old ROW. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Oct 16 18:55:34 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. Since it was built in 1918 that was very poor planning by the dual contracts.I don't think it was poor planning. That line was the extension of the 9th Ave elevated. There may also have been some technical reasons why a wider tunnel could not have built. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 19:06:59 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 15:39:37 2012. Here's some pictures taken in the final weeks of service. Are they Steinways or regular Low V's?  
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 19:09:46 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by italianstallion on Tue Oct 16 18:44:03 2012. Yeah, I noticed that a while back while checking out the area on Google Maps. The turnouts literally end right behind the center field seats.View Larger Map |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 19:58:20 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 19:06:59 2012. Wow...bright sunny day, and the train & station look completely deserted. I hate to see loss of any service...but wow... |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 20:00:05 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 19:09:46 2012. Yeah, the remanant stubs look liek they were shortened a bit more to allow for the stadium. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 20:28:34 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. Here is the link to the entire article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedgwick_Avenue_(IRT_Ninth_Avenue_Line) I think it could have been a nice alt. route to the west bronx. Maybe every other train would go to Woodlawn and the others end at 145st/Lenox. The end of the 155st station was so close to the end of the Yard. The structure could have been rebuilt to steel car standards (low V) the same way the Fulton El was. I think the Structure from Anderson ave to Jerome was all dual contracts. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 20:37:19 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 19:58:20 2012. 1958. The Giants were already gone and the area was dead. This was probably one of the more justifiable service abandonments. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Oct 16 20:56:59 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 17:33:57 2012. Steinways were Lo-Vs, with modified gearing. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 16 21:01:26 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 20:37:19 2012. It does seem that way... |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 21:18:12 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:54:00 2012. Even if it wasn't used regularly for revenue service, it would certainly be useful for re-routes. The (4) could've used the West Side in emergencies, much like the (5) often does. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Oct 16 22:19:53 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 16:02:41 2012. which underlines the serious value of even small route extensions. |
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| (1181526) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Oct 17 04:32:43 2012, in response to Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Oct 16 11:38:48 2012. Don't forget having to lengthen the stations to accomidate longer trains. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by chud1 on Wed Oct 17 04:34:22 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 19:06:59 2012. excellent pictures.chud1. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Oct 17 07:16:18 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 20:37:19 2012. And Giants attendance had seriously eroded over the previous 2-3 years. There's a reason they moved west. They only drew like 5-600,00 in 57, and not much more than that in 56. A lot of people don't remember/realize that no matter what the Dodgers had done, the Giants were gone anyways. Stoneham had the rights to Minneapolis/St Paul, as he had a AAA team there, and was ready to move THERE, when O'Malley suckered him into going to San Francisco, as O'M needed a second team on the coast to make the move to LA realistic - the NL would not let him move unless there was a second team to make the trip out there worthwhile for visiting teams. |
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| (1181534) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Oct 17 07:19:08 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Oct 16 12:03:39 2012. That likely would have required a full-bore rebuild of the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El. That might very well be something for the future, though that likely would require the closure of the 148th Street-Lenox Terminal stop with a new, nearby stop built to replace it (either in the tunnel or as an el). |
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| (1181535) | |
Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Oct 17 07:23:47 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Oct 17 07:16:18 2012. Interesting considering when the American League expanded, the Angels were the only team west of Kansas City until the A's moved to Oakland for the 1968 season (from 1961-'67, teams flew in to play the Angels three times a year with no second west coast team).After the Mets and Astros (originally Colt .45s) joined the NL in 1962, until the Padres and Expos (now Nationals) joined the NL in 1969, west coast road trips for NL teams was usually Houston-LA-SF, and once per season, teams had to fly to Houston from either LA or SF and then back to the west coast. |
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Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Oct 17 07:31:43 2012, in response to Re: Polo grounds shuttle was to be connected to Lenox Line, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 15:58:21 2012. And why I would now be looking to re-build that section along with one from the (3) to the Jerome El, if possible on a re-build doing it so the (3) also stopped at Yankee Stadium, even if it meant a new upper level of 161st Street had to be built to accommodate it. That would give west side IRT riders a new option to Yankee Stadium and also a new transfer from the (3) to the (D), plus obviously in an emergency allow the (4) to use the 7th Avenue line. |
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