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| Germany facing "epidemic" of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) (1137108) | |
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| (1137108) | |
Germany facing "epidemic" of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 19:51:55 2012 If they're saying it's at 3.5 percent, then it's most likely higher.The Local
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 3 19:57:04 2012, in response to Germany facing "epidemic" of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 19:51:55 2012. Sounds like the fine is too low.I believe most US systems that use POP have penalties in the $150-$250 range. |
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| (1137110) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 20:00:48 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 3 19:57:04 2012. Why would anyone stand for fines anyhow? That just encourages people to drive instead. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 3 20:18:11 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 20:00:48 2012. The only people who have to pay the fines are the criminals who don't pay their fare.I don't think fines for breaking traffic laws keep people from driving, so I don't see how fines for breaking transit laws would keep people off of transit systems. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 20:25:25 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 3 20:18:11 2012. The only people who have to pay the fines are the criminals who don't pay their fareThere must be a lot of "criminals", then. POP is hard to understand for a lot of people, and it's too dependent on technology that can break down suddenly. I don't think fines for breaking traffic laws keep people from driving Sure they do. Ever been on the revoked list? |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 21:17:37 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 20:25:25 2012. POP is hard to understand for a lot of peopleIf the concept of buying your ticket before boarding is too complex, then I don't want you driving either. |
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| (1137120) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Feb 3 21:52:58 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 3 19:57:04 2012. The MTA fine is $100, but there is a proposal to raise the fine to $500. |
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| (1137125) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 22:50:13 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 21:17:37 2012. No, that's not part of the concept. Try to leave false arguments out of this. Is it upsetting you that your passenger rail paradise is going through what I and others foresaw? |
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| (1137127) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 22:53:57 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Feb 3 21:52:58 2012. MTA will get rid of POP as well eventually, after experimenting with it on that Select Bus folly. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work W/O Enforcement) |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 3 23:26:30 2012, in response to Germany facing "epidemic" of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 19:51:55 2012. Corrected title |
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| (1137131) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 3 23:33:27 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 22:50:13 2012. Ok, but only if you leave your false argument out too. A fine that's about half a monthly pass rate means if you get caught once a month you still come out ahead... a higher fine will work.As for people too "confused" by it, I do realize the american education system is flawed but anyone who cannot follow the instructions of buy ticket -> validate ticket -> board vehicle has only themselves to blame. |
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| (1137132) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:37:11 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work W/O Enforcement), posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 3 23:26:30 2012. If you have "enforcement", it's not POP. One may as well have conductors on there, especially due to the manpower necessary to curtail the revenue losses. |
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| (1137133) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 23:37:48 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 22:50:13 2012. Is it upsetting you that your passenger rail paradise is going through what I and others foresaw?Nope. POP über alles! |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:39:08 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 3 23:33:27 2012. Ok, but only if you leave your false argument out too. A fine that's about half a monthly pass rate means if you get caught once a month you still come out ahead... a higher fine will work. . . towards encouraging people to drive instead of take public transit. As for people too "confused" by it, I do realize the american education system is flawed Think carefully about that high-handed response. Are you calling the German education system flawed too? This is happening in Germany, or did you not read the thread title? |
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| (1137135) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:40:14 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 23:37:48 2012. I'm glad that it's not upsetting you. The people that have to worry about fare revenue losses in Germany are very concerned about it. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 3 23:42:58 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:39:08 2012. I did, but you are saying "pop doesn't work" in general, and elsewhere in the thread you talk about SBS.As far as encouraging people to drive instead, I do agree that if a first experience is met with a fine it would definitely have that result. And while I would prefer having people who cannot follow simple instructions not share the same space as intelligent people on public transit, if you really want to prevent that just make the first offense $0 and a warning. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:44:45 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 3 23:42:58 2012. you are saying "pop doesn't work" in generalSo are the Germans. And they were one of the biggest originators of POP. And while I would prefer having people who cannot follow simple instructions not share the same space as intelligent people on public transit Seems like the "intelligent people" are the fare evaders that organize online. Did you read the article at all? |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 23:47:24 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:37:11 2012. One may as well have conductors on there, especially due to the manpower necessary to curtail the revenue losses.The benefit of POP is that instead of having one conductor accompanying for each run, said inspection can be done randomly and done at far more locations to with less labour. The Germans didn't develop POP for fun, but because of post-war labour shortages that required them to maximize their labour, and POP continues to allow German transit systems to have far more flexibility than with the use of conductors. More checks may be needed along with increased fines to combat the new network of farebeaters using technology, but POP has been a net to the efficiency of German transit. |
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| (1137141) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:51:58 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 23:47:24 2012. No, it sure hasn't. You calling the article a lie? |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 23:59:55 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:51:58 2012. No, it sure hasn't. You calling the article a lie?No, but I think you're desperate for anything to make the Germans and POP look bad to fit your biases. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 4 00:01:24 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:40:14 2012. The people that have to worry about fare revenue losses in Germany are very concerned about it.And they're doing something about it that doesn't ruin the dynamic nature of their public transport systems. |
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| (1137145) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 00:04:07 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 4 00:01:24 2012. No, they're scrambling. They won't be able to withstand the organized online farebeaters. It's a flaw in the system, not its administration. |
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| (1137146) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 00:05:08 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 23:59:55 2012. I don't have to be "desperate"; I just have to read the news, which you are desperate to disbelieve because it doesn't seem to fit with your rose-tinted view of the world. This gem fell into my lap; don't be upset over that. |
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| (1137148) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 4 00:24:43 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 00:05:08 2012. which you are desperate to disbelieve because it doesn't seem to fit with your rose-tinted view of the worldSnicker. You think I'm optimistic. :-) |
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| (1137149) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 00:30:26 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 4 00:24:43 2012. Well, you haven't abandoned the "POP will prevail" line yet. It's a wonder that the social marketeers haven't yet figured out that this is the perfect personnel position to fill . . . |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 00:52:20 2012, in response to Germany facing "epidemic" of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 19:51:55 2012. Probably still less than half what they'd have to invest if they were to purchase fare gates and the crews to maintain them. POP easily comes out ahead when one considers the many hidden costs of a barrier fare control system, particularly the inability to catch fare evaders once they're past the gate. |
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| (1137154) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:04:32 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 00:04:07 2012. Sure they will. They'll almost inevitably be able to read those same messages. For this online organization arrangement to pose a major problem to the transit system the fare beaters will have to open up their information to virtually anyone who requests it. It'd be almost impossible for that information they're providing to potential fare beaters to be withheld from the transit agency. All they'll have to do is look at where the potential fare beaters consider them to be weak and spring a few surprises on them.I'm not sure why you're targeting POP, when any other fare control system other than an onboard Conductor is just as open to the same exploit in the face of a determined group organized through the internet. The Germans just happen to use POP, and they've come to recognize the problem associated with online organization a bit before the rest of us. But a similar system could easily be set up in NYC indicating where a police officer is not patrolling the gates. If anything, NYCT's lack of proof of payment makes it more exposed to this problem because once they hop the gate in the absence of a cop they're free. It is also worth noting that the transit system itself could do well to put up their own information regarding POP control teams through a third party website, but to do so in an incomplete or misleading manner. Leaving a few apparent gaping holes in the enforcement and then putting teams in those areas to catch the farebeaters would be a good way to take a lot of the steam out of this social media effort. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:08:14 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:37:11 2012. Then what do you call a barrier fare control installation where there is no threat of prosecution if you jump over the barrier? No fare collection system is worth anything without enforcement. Hell, even a conductor is worthless if people think there will be no consequences, legal or otherwise, for their ignoring, threatening, or otherwise beating the fare in his presence. Fare collection is *entirely* about enforcement. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:10:58 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 20:25:25 2012. POP is hard to understand for a lot of people, and .Again, if you can't figure out POP, then you probably shouldn't leave the house. You're a danger to everyone around you, as POP is no more difficult to figure out than any commuter railroad which has tickets checked by a conductor. it's too dependent on technology that can break down suddenly And fare gates have a 100% reliability record? No fare gate has ever invalidated a ticket by accident? |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:39:34 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 22:53:57 2012. And what of the many other systems around the nation which use proof of payment, with or without barriers? Really at this point only New York, Philadelphia's SEPTA, Baltimore, Chicago, and Cleveland have systems which are devoid of POP elements. There are many more systems which use elements of proof of payment arrangements than there are systems which rely entirely on their fare gates to fully enforce the fare. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:45:25 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 23:44:45 2012. So are the Germans. And they were one of the biggest originators of POP.But they're not saying it doesn't work, just that technology has presented a challenge which must be mitigated. NYCT faces this same hole in their fare collection system, but they have not yet become aware of its potential to render their fare collection system worthless. NYCT is far more at risk because unless they're observed in the act of fare evasion the evader cannot be caught. At least with POP there are multiple chances to catch the fare evader. Seems like the "intelligent people" are the fare evaders that organize online. Did you read the article at all? Did you? How did it manage to evade you these supposed fare evasion social media outlets will not betray their users to the transit system's fare enforcement groups? |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 4 09:24:34 2012, in response to Germany facing "epidemic" of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 19:51:55 2012. Where have all the Germans gone?We (in Paris) used to say back in the seventies that POP would only work in West Germany and Austria but never in France or the UK. It also used to be that peak hour regular passengers on S-Bahn and Straßebahm were sort of volunteer ticket checkers and tell you to buy a ticket or get off the train if you didn't have one. Times have changed. New York subway in the token days was more flawed than POP. Once you entered the system, there was no way to check if you did so by paying or not. In Paris, you are supposed to keep your ticket until you exit the system. If you lose or throw away your ticket and get caught by ticket checkers, you'd be fined as a fare beater, no excuses. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 4 11:14:25 2012, in response to Germany facing "epidemic" of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 19:51:55 2012. POP does work. Muni has discovered it has a 96% compliance rate with as few as 6 fare enforcement officers on duty. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 4 12:14:52 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:04:32 2012. FARE EVADERS EATEN HERE: |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:21:02 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 4 11:14:25 2012. POP does work. Muni has discovered it has a 96% compliance rate with as few as 6 fare enforcement officers on duty.That's not what the Jason Lee paper said. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:21:50 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 00:52:20 2012. POP easily comes out ahead when one considers the many hidden costs of a barrier fare control system, particularly the inability to catch fare evaders once they're past the gate.You can catch evaders on a barrier system after they pass the gate. Just ask to see their ticket. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:23:25 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 3 23:59:55 2012. No, but I think you're desperate for anything to make the Germans and POP look bad to fit your biases.But Germans and POP are bad, regardless of the biases. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:25:03 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:08:14 2012. Fare collection is *entirely* about enforcement.So if you have enforcement, then you could just let people file their transit usage once a year and pay for what they used, like taxes? If that's what you mean by POP, going to a file-your-transit-use type system, I'm all for it. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:26:08 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:21:02 2012. Anyway, I thought you said you wouldn't have internet access? |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 13:25:47 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 4 09:24:34 2012. I think the farebeating's gone underreported for decades. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 13:34:53 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 4 11:14:25 2012. Sure they have. This is the city that bans Happy Meals, remember. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 4 14:17:10 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:21:50 2012. ...then why have the gate at all?And being told to keep your used ticket in that scenario is even more confusing than the validate -> keep ticket method, at least the first timer will hold on to a ticket until it is checked. The machine will give the false sense that it has been checked already. The best kind of barrier fare system IMO is one that requires a ticket on entry *and* exit like PATCO or DC. A fare beater would need to jump a faregate twice, and since they would have no idea of the police presence at their destination station before starting (even if a website says it is clear, that could change while en route), it may result in a fair amount of inconvenience. The "maximum fare from this station" charge that these systems have is a friendly penalty. IMO subways and *railroads* would benefit from a barrier fare control system like the one I described above, while LRTs are better served with PoP. |
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| (1137223) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 14:47:55 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 4 14:17:10 2012. IMO subways and *railroads* would benefit from a barrier fare control system like the one I described above, while LRTs are better served with PoPWell WADR, your opinion goes against reality. Nothing is served at all with POP, except for farebeaters that organize either online or via the phone. And how are you going to implement barrier control on FRA railroads that are at grade, especially where the station platforms start at grade crossings? (Pictured: NJT Murray Hill on Gladstone Branch.)  |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Sat Feb 4 14:52:52 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 14:47:55 2012. Neither do DMUs and ferries. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 15:11:15 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by RockParkMan on Sat Feb 4 14:52:52 2012. Nah, you just like putting honest union people out of work, dontcha? |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 15:15:00 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 00:52:20 2012. The Germans don't agree. And like aem7ac said, it's not impossible to check someone for fare payment after they pass a barrier. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Sat Feb 4 16:14:47 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 15:11:15 2012. I have never heard of a truly reliable DMU and 3 seat ride ferries are the LAST choice for commuter transportation. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 16:19:17 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by RockParkMan on Sat Feb 4 16:14:47 2012. Um, no. The only reason why Weeehawken Terminal withered was because the ferries were canceled (and union people were put out of work as a consequence). Erie Terminal and Exchange Place both had PATH, and both closed. You like putting union people out of work, dontcha? Light rail is still non-union in NJ. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 18:13:09 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 12:21:50 2012. That is true, but only to a point. I can throw my paper Metrocard away once I get through the gate and be completely indistinguishable from someone who jumped the gate. At least with POP there is a requirement to retain the ticket through the trip, which allows fare evaders to be identified after they get away from the gate. |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 18:16:16 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 15:15:00 2012. So where on the paper Metrocard does it say anything about retaining the ticket for a given amount of time, let alone throughout the length of the trip? Most of the time those are discarded upon entry, usually, in my observation, right on the floor inside the gate. If the fare evasion is not directly observed by the officer then how can it be prosecuted? |
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