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| (998948) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Nov 7 01:25:22 2010, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by vfrt on Sat Nov 6 15:55:41 2010. What..?so it can somehow justify your racist point of view? |
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| (998950) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Nov 7 01:27:18 2010, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 6 17:53:48 2010. the sentence doesn't fit the crime.just like your opinion..it doesnt fit..SO SHUT UP...YOURE SO ANNOYING!!!! |
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| (998961) | |
Re: BART cop might not get away with murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 03:40:35 2010, in response to BART cop gets away with murder, posted by Dand124 on Fri Nov 5 20:18:40 2010. I thought the feds were going to charge him with murder as well. What happened to that? |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (998962) | |
Re: BART cop most certainly committed murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 03:43:28 2010, in response to Re: BART cop never committed murder, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 6 14:46:02 2010.  He shot an unarmed man in the back of the head while he was lying face down and handcuffed.And he confessed that he intended to shoot Grant, albeit with a different gun. That's murder. It might not be first degree murder, but it's murder nonetheless. When you intentionally shoot someone with a weapon, resulting in their death, that's not manslaughter. |
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| (998964) | |
Re: BART cop never committed murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 03:53:26 2010, in response to Re: BART cop never committed murder, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 6 16:39:53 2010. Are you familiar with the concept of white privilege?Because it sure takes a lot of it to casually dismiss the systemic prejudice against racial minorities with a smug insistence that you don't bother with those things— not to mention a suggestion that noticing the existence of racism is just as racist as the racism itself. |
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| (998965) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 04:02:37 2010, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by Brighton Private on Sat Nov 6 12:41:18 2010. You can blame a lot of people.You can blame the Oakland judge who allowed the case to be relocated to LA. You can blame the jury for deciding that it's not really murder if the victim is black. You can blame the LA judge for throwing out the bulk of the case even after the jury's ruling. And if my vague understanding of the matter is correct, you can blame the prosecutors too. The prosecutors tried to charge this as plain second-degree murder, saying that Mehserle intended to shoot Grant with a firearm. Trying to prove that this happened undid their case; even though a cop knows the difference between a firearm and a taser, a jury who is looking for any reason to go easy on a white cop who killed a black man might be willing to doubt it. What they should have done was concede that Mehserle intended to shoot Grant with a taser. Because Grant was unarmed, lying on the ground, and handcuffed, shooting him with a taser would constitute felony assault and battery, and proving Mehserle's intent would be easy since he confessed to it. Once assault and battery was proven, the fact that Grant died as a result of Mehserle's actions makes it felony murder automatically. |
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| (998966) | |
Re: BART cop never committed murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 04:09:31 2010, in response to Re: BART cop never committed murder, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 6 16:43:18 2010. This officer did not start his day planning to shoot a black man, ergo is could not be murder.Not true. That he didn't plan it in advance means it's not first-degree murder, but it's still murder. If I only met you this very minute but I arbitrarily decide to shoot you in the face, it would still be murder— second-degree murder, but murder nonetheless, and I certainly wouldn't expect a two-year sentence for it. If I'd only just met you a few minutes ago, but arbitrarily decided to handcuff you, throw you on the ground, and then shoot you in the back of the head while you lay there without any attempt to resist, that would definitely be murder. If my defence was to say: "Oops, I used the wrong gun; I intended to severely injure him, not kill him!" then I would have no chance of escaping a murder conviction— unless, as has become plainly apparent, I were a cop and you were black. |
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| (998967) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 04:16:51 2010, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by G1Ravage on Sat Nov 6 23:59:03 2010. Except that Grant wasn't "acting like a wild animal;" he was handcuffed and lying face down on the platform, making absolutely no attempt to resist, when he was shot in the back of the head.So his prior criminal history is thus irrelevant. |
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| (998969) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Nov 7 04:38:11 2010, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 04:16:51 2010. agreed |
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| (998972) | |
Re: Olog-hai Should move to North Korea |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Nov 7 05:57:06 2010, in response to Re: Olog-hai Should move to North Korea, posted by Dand124 on Sun Nov 7 00:39:37 2010. You disagree with him about something. Ergo you are a communist. |
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| (999029) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 7 10:12:38 2010, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Nov 7 04:38:11 2010. agreed. But this officer had no way of knowing that this subject had a prior record.Does he assume that everyone has a prior record? Does he assume that all black people have prior records? His training failed him at the moment that he needed it. Did he get up that morning and say to himself "Who am I going to shoot today?" No he likely did not. Was he remorseful over what had happened. Undoubtedly he was. Does he deserve punishment? Yes, undoubtedly so. But his actions did not rise to the level of Murder One. Or so the jury thought. Anyway, now he is in jail, and now HE has a prior record. If he survives jail, he will have to look for a new line of work. But a man is dead. What line of work will he go into? 
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| (999054) | |
Re: BART cop never committed murder |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 7 10:51:55 2010, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 7 10:12:38 2010. You need to read the bible more and the catechism less. |
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| (999110) | |
Re: BART cop never committed murder |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 7 11:50:34 2010, in response to Re: BART cop never committed murder, posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 03:53:26 2010. No, I am not familiar with the concept of white privilege. I did not know that their was such a thing.I do know that east of the Hudson/Potomac Rivers very few people think in terms of race. I certainly do not think of myself as "white", and I have no reason to think that I am better than any black man or out here Indian (Native American) as the case may be. Of those that I know, I actually consider them to be better than me. Dr. Williams has TWO doctorates, I don't have any. Most of the physicians that I visit are of a different race. I have never seen myself as better than these. Those around here that I look down upon based solely on appearance and first impression are white. And I am usually wrong about those people as well. Do I believe racism exists. Yes, unfortunately it does. Do I think that black people in general read more into race than they should? Yes I do. If I were black, maybe I would too. American Indians do not seem to worry about their race. We have a large Asian Indian population, they do not seem to worry about their race. We have more Muslims than Jews in Bismarck, but no one seems to worry about their religion. (The first mosque in the United States was in North Dakota). Do I have any answers, no I do not, But is does seem to me that some blacks (by no means a large number) seem to project their issues onto others. Heck, I know that I project my issues onto others, but race is not one of these.
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| (999117) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 7 11:54:14 2010, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 04:02:37 2010. That argument is sound. I might have no trouble with a stiffer sentence had the evidence been presented to me in that manner. Clearly the officer was in the wrong.
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| (999119) | |
Re: BART cop never committed murder |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 7 12:00:40 2010, in response to Re: BART cop never committed murder, posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 04:09:31 2010. I can follow your logic up to the last thought. Even if all the first part of your premise is true, it does not automatically follow that this happened because the subject was black, or that racism was involved. It may have played out (on the platform) the same way if the subject was white.As for the trial and the way that it was handled, it may have been contrived to let the officer off easily, because he was an officer, and perhaps under pressure, but not because he was white. I at least would have stuck up for the officer had he been black and the subject white if the situation seemed to mitigate against the guilt of the officer. Maybe it did and maybe it did not. I did not review the facts, prosecute, or try the case. I would not have considered race as a factor in the crime or in the sentence.
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| (999448) | |
Re: BART cop never committed murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 19:33:28 2010, in response to Re: BART cop never committed murder, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 7 11:50:34 2010. It's hard to notice white privilege if you have it; there's a reason it's often called the "invisible knapsack." That's because white privilege isn't about affirmative advantages that you have; it's about disadvantages that you don't have.Basically, white privilege is the unfair advantages given to white people as a result of piling unfair disadvantages on everyone else. You're not entitled to anything special because you have less pigmented skin, but if people with darker skin are unfairly excluded from the job you want, you gain an advantage by not having to compete with people just as qualified (or potentially more so). The fact that you can walk into a store secure in the knowledge that security won't follow you around and harass you the whole time on the basis that anyone of your race is probably there to shoplift is an example of white privilege. The fact that you're never asked to speak on behalf of your race is an example of white privilege. The fact that you can screw up without people attributing it to the inherent deficiency of your race is an example of white privilege. And the fact that you don't have to notice the race of most victims of police shootings because it isn't yours is an example of white privilege. White privilege is a term used to describe the systemic racism that plagues our society. It doesn't mean nobody with darker skin can ever be successful, and it doesn't require white people to be openly racist; white privilege can be sustained merely by white people ignoring it, and doesn't require the Council of Conservative Citizens to openly advocate on behalf of white supremacy. And the fact that you can believe black people "read more into race than they should" is an example of white privilege too. |
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| (999469) | |
Re: BART cop never committed murder |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Nov 7 19:44:06 2010, in response to Re: BART cop never committed murder, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 7 12:00:40 2010. There are two separate issues here— that there is systemic discrimination against black people, and that there is a widespread belief that police are (or should be) above the law. Both played a role. If Mehserle had killed a white man, he might have been let off because he was a cop. If Mehserle wasn't a cop, he might have been let off because the victim was black. Both are unfortunately common occurrences in our judicial system.Which of those two issues is most important here is impossible to determine. It could be that they let him off because he was a cop and they believed cops are exempt from the law. It could be that they let him off easy because Grant was black, and they believed black people are so inherently evil and dangerous that it's acceptable to kill them even when they're handcuffed and on the ground. It could be that this killing was so grotesque and unjustifiable that they only let him off because he was a cop and Grant was black. That doesn't change the fact that Mehserle's actions constituted second-degree murder, since Grant died as a direct result of Mehserle intentionally committing grievous bodily harm against him, nor the fact that the systemic racism inherent in our society makes it "less" of a crime to kill black people, nor, for that matter, the fact that police are widely held to be exempt from the law or any constraints of morality and society. And it certainly doesn't change the fact that if you were black and I was a cop, I could probably kill you without facing any more severe criminal repercussions than Mehserle did. |
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| (1070891) | |
Could be released in weeks (Re: BART cop gets away with murder) |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Jun 1 00:24:04 2011, in response to BART cop gets away with murder, posted by Dand124 on Fri Nov 5 20:18:40 2010. Weird that he's never even made it to prison where he was supposed to serve his time and instead has been at LA County Jail. I wonder if they have a special protected wing or if he was in general population. That would be tough for him to do time in general population.Transit cop convicted of fatally shooting unarmed commuter could be released in June The former transit cop who’s serving a 2-year prison sentence for the fatal shooting of a Bay Area commuter on New Year’s Day two years ago could leave jail as early as mid-June. KPCC’s Julie Small reports. Bay Area Rapid Transit policeman Johannes Mehserle shot and killed an unarmed Oscar Grant as he lay face down on a train platform. The transit cop later said it was an accident: he’d thought he was firing his stun gun. A jury in Los Angeles, where the trial moved because of intense publicity and protests in the Bay Area, appeared to believe Mehserle and convicted him of involuntary manslaughter. The former transit officer has spent 11 months of a two-year sentence at Los Angeles County Men’s Central Jail. But credit for time served could secure his release within a few weeks. That’s the next time Mehserle is scheduled to appear in a Los Angeles courtroom. Officials plan to place Mehserle on parole. His attorney says the former transit cop plans to look for a job in sales or business - and to stay in California for now. The victim’s relatives in Oakland have filed a federal civil suit. They want the Justice Department to file federal charges against Mehserle and other BART police present at Oscar Grant's killing in the early hours of New Year’s Day 2009. |
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| (1070901) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by Thunderbolt on Wed Jun 1 01:13:21 2011, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sat Nov 6 17:50:27 2010. When a police officer is dealing with an extremely stressful situation as this, they will fall back on their training. In such situations, perceptions of time and space get skewed; rational thought takes a back seat to the fight or flight response, and when the adrenaline is pumping, the grip of a service pistol will feel the same as that of a Taser. It doesn't mean the officer's actions are right, but IMO the burden ought to fall on the deceased individual who, if I'm not mistaken, was resisting arrest and caused the situation to escalate, thus leading to the slip-up. |
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| (1070905) | |
Re: BART cop gets away with murder |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jun 1 01:31:14 2011, in response to Re: BART cop gets away with murder, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Nov 5 20:59:51 2010. how so?what label or degree of a crime was copmmitted? he SHOT HIM IN THE BACK..WHILE HE WAS CUFFED..LAYING FACE DOWN.. He knew what he was doing..that im gonna taz him crap was bullshit. he shot him..the fellow is dead.. ITS MURDER! |
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| (1070927) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jun 1 06:27:20 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by RockParkMan on Sat Nov 6 18:06:42 2010. Myth! Hitler shot himself in the head. |
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| (1070931) | |
Re: Could be released in weeks (Re: BART cop gets away with murder) |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Jun 1 06:32:56 2011, in response to Could be released in weeks (Re: BART cop gets away with murder), posted by Easy on Wed Jun 1 00:24:04 2011. Former cops generally do not go into gen pop. Depends on prison administration, or if a judge orders protection (rare). |
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| (1070939) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 1 07:14:11 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Nov 6 19:15:51 2010. I have a little experience with this subject. I've been to the scene of the Diallo shooting, photographing a memorial service at the site in 2002, IIRC. Being at the scene, seeing the surroundings, I could see how the officers involved could have made the fatal mistake they did. It doesn't make it any less tragic or wrong, but it does say to me that there was more than enough doubt for the verdict to be what it was. |
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| (1070966) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jun 1 10:47:39 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 1 07:14:11 2011. I believe that police should be held to a higher standard. If their job is to protect society they should be absolutely sure before either using deadly force or even threatening to use it, even if it puts them in greater danger. After all that's what they are being paid to do, put their lives on the line. At the same time I would support giving police greater leeway to shoot violent criminals if it came with much harsher penalties for mistaken shootings. Great power matched with great accountability solves both problems. |
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Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Jun 1 11:01:42 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jun 1 10:47:39 2011. I used to think like that, but now I think that it's backwards. You really can't ask someone to potentially shoot someone as part of their job description and then hold them to a higher standard. They need to be held to a common standard commiserate with their training and expertise, but perhaps lower than that of the general public since we the public are asking for them to do that type of work. |
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| (1070974) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Jun 1 11:58:21 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jun 1 10:47:39 2011. You can't task someone with the job of protecting people from the likes of Colin Ferguson and Jared Loughner and then second-guess them when they choose to use deadly force in line with their training. In THIS case it was an outright murder, just like that idiot pharmacist in Oklahoma. Once the person is subdued, you cease hostile action against them.When it's YOUR life or death, you don't hesitate. Period. |
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Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jun 1 12:38:47 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Easy on Wed Jun 1 11:01:42 2011. I will repeat from last year4. in every Western I saw as a kid shooting someone in the back was portrayed as evil. I still hold that view. and add that when you have the person prone on the platform deadly force is not justifiable. |
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| (1070988) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 1 13:03:04 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jun 1 10:47:39 2011. I believe that police should be held to a higher standardThen become a cop and show them how it's done, Superman. |
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| (1070991) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Jun 1 13:10:27 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jun 1 12:38:47 2011. I didn't mean this case specifically, but in general. And you shouldn't compare entertainment to real life. Sometimes people need to be shot in the back. Obviously not Oscar Grant, but someone that is violent and a danger to others. |
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| (1070993) | |
Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Jun 1 13:21:17 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jun 1 12:38:47 2011. It's actually against policy to shoot a suspect in the back, under most circumstances. Obviously, if the guy is running toward a herd of children and firing away, you take your shot. |
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Re: BART cop didn't commit murder |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Jun 2 13:51:51 2011, in response to Re: BART cop didn't commit murder, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jun 1 06:27:20 2011. True, but mouth or head, just as dead. |
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