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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by sloth on Fri Feb 4 16:28:00 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:21:09 2011. i'm willing to bet the dip in pitkin is manmade, to cover the yard leads, which are pretty close to the surface. the fact that the street hasn't collapsed doesn't prove anything, because we don't know the location or the severity of the water problem. let's get the radar sled. i'm willing to put up some dough. we could even make a bet between the believers and the non-believers for who picks up the tab. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:35:17 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:03:57 2011. And just why couldn't construction have continued as far as 79 St. Remember, there is a possibility that the through routing of Pitkin with Old South Rd took place in conjunction with the subway construction and the strong possibility also exists that that whole portion of the subway might have been built even before Euclid since there was no el structure at that point to underpin and no traffic along the new street alignment to be disturbed by any subway construction. Having seen construction photos of ENY station under Truxton Pk which was also built free of any street traffic, it's very easy to imagine that since Pitkin was being through routed any how, why not do all the work at once, cover it over superficially until more complete street construction could take place and leave the shell there for eventual connection to the rest of the subway. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:39:54 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:24:22 2011. As I mentioned in several posts, I don't think that in 1936, the city knew exactly where the rest of the Fulton St subway would go past that point since there were several possible routings past that point. Tunnel Rat even mentioned the possibility of the subway being connected to the Fulton St El structure in the vicinity of Bway Jct although that would have required the rebuilding of the portion of the els structure between Hinsdale St and Grant Av which was not upgraded with the rest of the el as part of the dual contracts. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:40:05 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:26:39 2011. the mainline tracks of the Fulton St Subway are at least 3 levels below the street.Agreed but those locations are basically on a hill overlooking the Spring Creek flood plain. For the trackway to not decline too steeply, it makes sense that any tunnel east of Elderts would not have been as deep as that west of it. Considering that the merges with the yard leads would have meant two levels anyway and that Pitkin was raised (when it was joined with Old South Road), it would have made sense that the upper level would have been not much deeper than the raised road. It would have then dropped down to the main tracks and that upper level would have made way for the 76 St Station mezzanine. Under such cirmustances, the shell should have been visible in the 1951 photos. Having it any deeper than that would have entailed a dramatic incline for both the main tracks and the yard leads starting just east of Euclid Av. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:41:06 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 16:06:09 2011. That's what I've been trying to tell everyone but nobody seems to be paying attention. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:44:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:40:05 2011. Those mainline tracks actually DO incline dramatically. From the way it looks, the would continue to go downgrade beyond the wall. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by sloth on Fri Feb 4 16:44:32 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:50:27 2011. How can a blurry aerial photo prove or disprove what's underground? How does having a harmless belief in an abandoned station shell make me analogous to a birther? I also believe in Abe Lincoln's funeral train, would you care to present a point by point rebuttal of why I shouldn't? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 16:48:06 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:12:27 2011. If such a station shell did not exist, then how do you account for the almost identical descriptions of the station at different times by different people who never met each other?1) It's not difficult to describe an IND local station. They're scarcely known for being original pieces of design. 2) It's a well-known myth: although these people may never have met each other, they might well all have gotten certain embellishments from the same third parties. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:49:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:35:17 2011. Remember, there is a possibility that the through routing of Pitkin with Old South Rd took place in conjunction with the subway construction and the strong possibility also exists that that whole portion of the subway might have been built even before EuclidThat's an interesting theory. One needs to find out when Pitkin was through routed with Old South Road. I would just find it hard to believe that they would build a stretch of subway on that street but not build any sidewalks, grates, etc while they were at it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:49:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 14:02:52 2011. A7 and A8 leads would wye into both the local and express tracks at 76 St. A7 had the additional "safety spur" since the leads were coming downgrade from Pitkin Yd. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:51:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:39:54 2011. Randy, how far did the Fulton subway tracks continue, east of Rockaway Ave, in 1936? My mother hated those wooden walkways to the center tracks at Rockaway Ave, after she got off of the Jamaica Ave streetcar!! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 16:55:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by sloth on Fri Feb 4 16:28:00 2011. i'm willing to bet the dip in pitkin is manmadeNo, the contours were mapped in 1888. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:56:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:51:46 2011. The reason I ask is that nycsubway.org station guide for Broadway- East NY states that IT, not rockaway Ave, was the end of the line for that section of construction. Take a look! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 16:56:43 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:50:27 2011. But there IS enough evidence. The old urban legends all developed before the city and other websites made those historical aerial photos available. While skeptical, I was just as open-minded as you on the possibilities, especially considering that weird yard on the NW corner of Pitkin/76 next to that building.Those pics put all such speculation to rest. The yard setbacks in the location are not a reasoning either way for this station. The setbacks are required by law after the zoning laws for setbacks changed. All those buildings were built AFTER zoning changed. Just because some people used that as some sort of "proof" of the station is irrelevant. Instead, in reality the trackway would have most likely been just a few feet below the natural street level. A mezzanine would have been just a few below the raised street level with utilities over that. Pure speculation. Knowing this, the 1951 pic of the section between Ruby and 77th would have exposed any station superstructure (the mezzanine roof) sticking out from the sides of Pitkin, considering that the empty lots there drop by multiple feet below the raised Pitkin and there is even foundation construction on the SW corner of 76/Pitkin. You can see that the contours of the houses there perfectly match those foundations in later pics, including the space for driveways. Along Ruby. However There is no evidence of any foundations along Pitkin, and we have no idea if there is a drop, and how much it would be. We also don't know how deep the subway would be here. 5 feet is pretty shallow for subway, it would have to be about 15 or 20 feet down. Even the shallow IRT Contract One stations are more than 5 feet down. And for the wild hysteria of there being 10+ ravines on either side of Pitkin road structure is absurd. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 16:58:14 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:50:27 2011. But there IS enough evidence. The old urban legends all developed before the city and other websites made those historical aerial photos available. While skeptical, I was just as open-minded as you on the possibilities, especially considering that weird yard on the NW corner of Pitkin/76 next to that building.Those pics put all such speculation to rest. The yard setbacks in the location are not a reasoning either way for this station. The setbacks are required by law after the zoning laws for setbacks changed. All those buildings were built AFTER zoning changed. Just because some people used that as some sort of "proof" of the station is irrelevant. Instead, in reality the trackway would have most likely been just a few feet below the natural street level. A mezzanine would have been just a few below the raised street level with utilities over that. Pure speculation. Knowing this, the 1951 pic of the section between Ruby and 77th would have exposed any station superstructure (the mezzanine roof) sticking out from the sides of Pitkin, considering that the empty lots there drop by multiple feet below the raised Pitkin and there is even foundation construction on the SW corner of 76/Pitkin. You can see that the contours of the houses there perfectly match those foundations in later pics, including the space for driveways. Along Ruby. However There is no evidence of any foundations along Pitkin, and we have no idea if there is a drop, and how much it would be. We also don't know how deep the subway would be here. 5 feet is pretty shallow for subway, it would have to be about 15 or 20 feet down. Even the shallow IRT Contract One stations are more than 5 feet down. And for the wild hysteria of there being 10+ ravines on either side of Pitkin road structure is absurd. If the City were to one day make available pictures of construction not going much past Elderts Lane, the 76ers will say that construction beyond hadn't yet started (or was already finished) or come up with more excuses to keep believing. It's like with Birthers or Truthers. No matter how much evidence is presented to them, they will come up with some other reason to push their belief beyond the bounds of rational forensic proof. Give some concrete proof and it can be discussed, thus far all we have is speculation. The 10+ foot ravines on either side of pitkin one of the wildest speculation yet. my analysis OTOH, is a point by point breakdown of why there cannot be a station there. YOur "analysis" is all speculation, and theory, not fact. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 17:01:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:49:46 2011. Depending on the circumstances that could have all been a part of the work stoppages caused by the war. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 17:03:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:41:06 2011. Kids are playing hide and seek. :)Only reason I ever heard the stories back in 1971 was because of a divert - railroad was screwed and so my S/B rush D became an A and got sent to Euclid. When I got there, I was told to just park it down below and I was done for the day. They wanted the arnines I had brought in to send down to Rockaway to free up some cars to go back to 207 later that night. So after getting the slow walkies tour of down below, I was curious about where all that went and ended up talking with a few old timers who had finished their day and were headed home. Heard the whole story of 76th, how it had been used for partial layups and storage, the whole "non-union contractor coverup" and the model board. Next time I was out there, I looked at the board and there it was. Never gave it another thought until Dave's subchat and all the hoohah since. But I heard EXACTLY the same stuff way back then. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 17:05:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:56:20 2011. There are several errors and inaccuracies on nycsubway.org. If the subway infrastructure had been completed to ENY by 1936, then why wasn't the station completed until 1945? There should have been nothing to prevent the entire statin, finish, tracks and signals from being completed at that time. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 17:05:16 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 16:55:20 2011. Yep. As one can see, the section of Pitkin/Old South Rd between Elderts and the cemetery is in a marshy valley. The cemetery is on higher ground. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 17:07:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:03:57 2011. But that fever pace hit unplanned water problems east of Elderts Lane that probably slowed construction. Instead of taking it to 79th, construction was probably still at Forbell when the war came and construction stopped.Again, that is pure speculation on your part, not fact. You keep trying to pass your theory off as fact, when it is not fact. It is not a bad theory, and worthy of thought, but it is NOT fact. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 17:08:25 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 16:48:06 2011. How about the partial manh.bound station.do you know how rediculous #2 sounds? just like a whole lot of #2. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 17:09:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 17:03:31 2011. I first heard a hint about it in 1959, and later in 1962. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Feb 4 17:10:10 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 11:09:53 2011. Bernie Linder is the editor-in-chief of the ERA`S bulletin.iirc in an article before mine on 76st was published he stated that after discovering the contract drawings for said ext.the contract books were missing.THE PLOT THICKENS.Nope, the plot sickens ! Contract drawings and/or contract books mean as much as 76th St. on the Euclid Ave. tower. Actual construction photographs, if they exist would be proof. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by sloth on Fri Feb 4 17:11:18 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 16:55:20 2011. that's an interesting map but it's hardly conclusive. i live in greenpoint, and i can't say that the 1888 map resembles the current elevations all that much. there's a hill exactly where A7 and A8 descend. was it always there? did the IND take advantage of an existing natural feature to drop the yard leads to track level? we don't know. that's where all these arguments lead to until someone rents the sled, or gets underground past the wall. thanks for the map, but i'll keep my eccentric superstitions. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 17:12:05 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:49:46 2011. That's an interesting theory.One needs to find out when Pitkin was through routed with Old South Road. And that's the only point I am trying to make too. His theory is just as good (or bad) as your theory, and they are BOTH theories. Yours is no more fact than his is, and has no more merit than his does, yet you keep trying to pass your idea off as fact, and we have no more information or facts to look at than we do with anyone else here. I would just find it hard to believe that they would build a stretch of subway on that street but not build any sidewalks, grates, etc while they were at it. Construction on this line was ABRUPTLY ended. What was done was left. What wasn't done yet wasn't finished. As for grates, since no work was ongoing, the place to put the grates may not have even been ready for them yet, not to mention availability of metal. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 17:12:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:49:46 2011. Thats a good theory.When the archer ave.ext.was built,it was built in sections,not 1 continious subway. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 17:13:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:24:22 2011. The station was complete, but the tracks were not laid yet, and the signals weren't in yet. And then we were thrust into the war, with all metal going to that effort. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 17:14:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 17:09:27 2011. Showoff! :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 17:16:19 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:56:20 2011. That is correct. The station at Bway East New York was completely finished, tiled and ready to go....the problem was the tracks were not laid there yet, and the signals weren't in yet, and because of the war, metal to finish that was not available, so while Bway East New York sat there all ready to go, there was no way to get the trains past Rockaway Ave to the station. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:23:06 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 16:06:09 2011. Wouldn't it have been usable in the same way Rockaway Av was — i.e. temporary platforms over the local tracks? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:26:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 17:08:25 2011. do you know how rediculous #2 sounds?Not ridiculous at all. If I encounter 50 different people in the city, then each of them encounters 50 different people, and so on, it only takes four degrees of separation until you've got the entire population of the five boroughs. It's really quite likely: cities are great places for the propagation of myths. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 17:26:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:23:06 2011. To what end?spend a lot of$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to have a court sttype shuttle.how many people would it benefit,a handfull? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 17:28:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:26:38 2011. lets take a vote on that. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 17:38:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:23:06 2011. Why bother? From what I was told, the tracks didn't go all that far into the hole, the rest was just empty roadbed. Why lay tracks to a stop that had no way to be used, even temporarily, much less crank it up for any service? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:43:05 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by sloth on Fri Feb 4 17:11:18 2011. i live in greenpoint, and i can't say that the 1888 map resembles the current elevations all that much.Yes, it does. Remember that single contours aren't cliffs. Here is a mid to late 20th century topo map. The modern map is more detailed, but it basically agrees with the 1888 one. there's a hill exactly where A7 and A8 descend. was it always there? Yes, it was, and if anything it has been made less steep by filling in the bottom to make the surface less marshy. we don't know No, we have maps. Because of them, we can be very certain indeed about topography. that's where all these arguments lead to until someone rents the sled, or gets underground past the wall. It would certainly be interesting to see a geophysical survey. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:45:19 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 17:12:05 2011. Construction on this line was ABRUPTLY ended. What was done was left.Yes, they might even have hastily temporarily finished off their work with, oh, a cinderblock wall. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by sloth on Fri Feb 4 19:17:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:43:05 2011. 76th street is like the existence of god. some people are quite sure but satisfactory proof is hard to come by. given that single contours represent barely perceptible elevations, and the stretch of pitkin we are talking about is a 1-block hill that isn't duplicated on glenmore or sutter, in a likely location for the yard leads, well, at least you can see why i might think what i do. until the geophysical survey, sloth. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 19:25:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 17:16:19 2011. When was Broadway- East NY built then? The same time as Rockaway Ave (4/09/36) or later? The war didn't start until 5 years and 8 months later, after Pearl Harbor. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 19:29:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 19:25:39 2011. And, I'll ask again- how far east past Rockaway ave did the tracks go? I know all about the temp wooden walkways from the platforms to the doors, at Ralph and Rockaway. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 19:31:21 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 19:29:28 2011. I,m pretty sure they b/b just past the station. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 19:52:21 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 19:31:21 2011. But they could not continue the tracks to the almost finished Broadway- East NY station. They had almost 6 years to do so! Right? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 4 20:01:05 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 02:46:58 2011. I have to agree that this aerial photograph really neither proves nor disproves much of anything. We're talking about an underground subway tunnel and possibly a station that may not have been completed. It isn't an X-ray. There's no significant depth perception. It's fascinating but, again, neither proves nor disproves anything except perhaps that no visible subway entrances existed. A complete subway station or an incomplete shell or maybe just a tunnel or maybe nothing at all may or may not exist there. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 20:02:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 19:52:21 2011. Do the math! It took the City only 3 years and 2 months to get from Jay Street (02/11/33) to Rockaway Ave (4/09/36). But they could not complete one more stop to B'way- ENY in the 5 years and 8 months before WWII? That's basically my question! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 20:08:02 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 19:52:21 2011. I believe they ran out of money. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by dtrain1 on Fri Feb 4 20:19:54 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 4 20:01:05 2011. this is a hit and miss situation but PS 214 at 2944 Pitkin ave seems to be reasonably close to the right away? I would be interested to see on the official building plans that were CO'ed if there was anything either on the Site plan for the property, foundation footing plans and or underground utilities if there was any reference to a subway tunnel.At that point from reading everyone's thoughts wouldn't this subway if built be six tracks wide? this is taking into account the two yard tracks. I do want to say that I am enjoying this post. Lots of good yea's an Nay's debating for sure |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 4 20:20:52 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:05:38 2011. I hope we don't get into another war. Then 100 years from now our grandchildren will be debating how much of the Second Avenue Subway was actually built before the war halted construction, and "is there a 72 Street station?" |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 20:23:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by dtrain1 on Fri Feb 4 20:19:54 2011. Yes,i,m looking at the hand-drawn proposed track map of that section & for a short section it is 6 tracks. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Feb 5 00:36:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 17:26:38 2011. I won't say it's ridiculous, but I would say it's kind of unlikely. Remember the game "telephone"? How you have one person pass on a simple phrase, and, after having different people pass it on, it gets distorted? If this was a myth that was being propagated, I would expect more differences, yet the descriptions are remarkably similar. Plus, at least a couple of people claim to have actually SEEN it, not heard it from somebody who actually saw it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Sat Feb 5 00:43:06 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 20:23:22 2011. Is this the same one posted before on this thread, by the guy from ERA?-Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Feb 5 01:29:56 2011, in response to 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Jan 28 13:58:35 2011. How about we get a certain Console Dispatcher to stick his nose around corners and into dark areas of control to find out if there is any fact to an actual shell or something...Perhaps Mark W can help out in some way... |
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