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| New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... (902755) | |
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New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Jan 24 17:00:22 2012 My Blog. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 24 19:12:15 2012, in response to New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by JayMan on Tue Jan 24 17:00:22 2012. My wife, all 4 of whose grandparents were born in Sicily, would agree with you on your competence, corruption, and probably inbreeding claims. She'd be impressed that some of your maps show other areas of Italy as being worse. She wouldn't agree about the IQ. She has a lot of remarkably clever relatives. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 24 19:44:28 2012, in response to New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by JayMan on Tue Jan 24 17:00:22 2012. Protestant Christianity helped bring Europe out of the Dark Ages. So I'm convinced that there are links between IQ and race/ethnicity. No big deal. I don't get all worked up about it like other races and ethnic groups who are always looking for a fight. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Jan 24 20:38:26 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 24 19:44:28 2012. I don't get all worked up about it like other races and ethnic groups who are always looking for a fight.I didn't think that you would. ;) Protestant Christianity helped bring Europe out of the Dark Ages. So I'm convinced that there are links between IQ and race/ethnicity. Yes indeed, the Church likely had a huge role in it. Mostly by cutting down on the inbreeding and helping to breakup the tribes that were prevalent during the Dark Ages. But to be fair, this began with the Catholics, as the Reformation didn't happen until the 16th century and the changes brought about by the Church were well in place. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 00:33:55 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 24 19:44:28 2012. Protestantism didn't even exist when Europe came out of the Dark Ages.This has been pointed put to you over and over. I am gonna find out who your history teacher was and kill him/her. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 25 00:55:29 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 00:33:55 2012. Hugh Hewitt.Protestant Christianity was beginning around then. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 01:23:36 2012, in response to New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by JayMan on Tue Jan 24 17:00:22 2012. Once again, you continue to ignore brain drain.All your map really demonstrates is the superiority of liberal and progressive political policies that define the North and Central parts of that country versus the retrograde conservative ones prevalent in most of the South. This liberal vs conservative abyss in IQ and regional economic development can be found in just about any advanced country in the world. Smart, open-minded, knowledge-seeking and entrepreneurial people (all defining characteristics of the Liberal) also happen to be the ones who will most likely leave their ignorant conservative areas of origin thus further exacerbating the brain drain and average IQ by leaving behind the chumps and the unproductive. It is THIS the underlying cause that you should be focusing on rather than discredited genetic factors. In Italy's case, that underlying cause is caused by its pre-Unification history and the devastating socio-economic events that rocked the South in the decades immediately following Unification. Your "frequency of last names" map is particularly laughable. It is obvious that Northern universities will have a higher frequency of diverse last names. Why? Because as i just said, a great number of Southerners move there while only a minuscule percentage of northerners do the opposite thus concentrating regional surnames in the southern academic institutions. In the absence of such analysis, your fancy maps are worth less than a truckload of dead rats in a tampon factory. (look up that last quote) As far as "Italian incompetence" in the Costa incident, I think that a citizen of the nation that produced the Exxon Valdez disaster and the botched response to the aftermath of the levee failures in New Orleans after Katrina shouldn't be casting any stones in his own glass house. Schettino getting his job because of nepotism in Napoli? That would almost be credible if not for the fact that Costa is based in Genova. Do your homework man. I'm sure your teacher reminded you of that. and of course your Godfather, Sopranos and Goodfellas citation. There is nothing better suited to understand Italian culture than watching movies and TV series produced and directed by Americans. I'm disappointed that you didn't mention "Jersey Shore" or Tony Danza characters while you were at it. It's like Mario Balotelli producing a documentary about the American Civil War and the African-American Experience. The topper is that your article completely fails to mention that people in Italy have the highest IQ on Earth outside of a handful of East Asian countries and live long and healthy lives. Sounds like pretty good genetic stock to me. Higher than those Norwegians and Danes you love so much. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jan 25 08:16:08 2012, in response to New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by JayMan on Tue Jan 24 17:00:22 2012. I'm never fortunate enough to get the time for all of this!Southern Italians are the majority of our immigrants right? |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jan 25 08:49:20 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 00:33:55 2012. Many historians consider the term "Dark Ages" extremely unfortunate. There was no time after the collapse of the Roman Empire that there weren't numerous centers of learning in Europe. We don't have detailed records of their achievements any more, but we know they existed.And if you are using the term in an economic context, it's hard to argue that the average peasant in 1400 was that much better off than the average peasant in 700. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 25 13:05:36 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 25 00:55:29 2012. The Dark Ages had long since been over by 1517. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 25 13:09:31 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by AlM on Wed Jan 25 08:49:20 2012. Even if you accept that there must have been a "Dark Age" where society regressed from where it was previously, it would have been over by 800 at the latest. Considering the High Middle Ages as any sort of "Dark Age" is highly ignorant. And in any event the Middle Ages were over by 1517. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 13:40:23 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 01:23:36 2012. I figure this would get you going, and you have not disappointed. :DOnce again, you continue to ignore brain drain. It is THIS the underlying cause that you should be focusing on rather than discredited genetic factors. I don't ignore brain drain, and almost certainly it has exacerbated the underlying divide, as you've stated. However, it couldn't be primarily responsible for the divide or even a significant part of it because there is little genetic overlap between Northern, Central, and Southern Italians. IOW, all three groups are distinct populations. As such, the differences between them are largely pre-existing ones. This liberal vs conservative abyss in IQ and regional economic development can be found in just about any advanced country in the world. Indeed, but one has to consider the source. Here you are acknowledging a relationship between conservativism and lower average IQ. I would argue that they are genetically co-mingled, and that Western liberalism is due to the unique evolutionary path that NW Europeans have gone down. This will be the topic of a future blog post of mine, but indeed, various measures show that NW Europeans top the charts in engagement in social welfare and community projects, far ahead of Italians (and I'm wagering that this is also split between the north and the south). Southern Italians have a different mindset thanks to their own evolutionary history. Because as i just said, a great number of Southerners move there while only a minuscule percentage of northerners do the opposite thus concentrating regional surnames in the southern academic institutions. But, doesn't that then go back to the inbreeding thing? As far as "Italian incompetence" in the Costa incident, I think that a citizen of the nation that produced the Exxon Valdez disaster and the botched response to the aftermath of the levee failures in New Orleans after Katrina shouldn't be casting any stones in his own glass house. Well, America has its own ethnic divides that break down trust and cooperation, something I'm going to delve into when I take a look at Appalachia and the American South. Schettino getting his job because of nepotism in Napoli? That would almost be credible if not for the fact that Costa is based in Genova. Do your homework man. I'm sure your teacher reminded you of that. Even though Costa is based in Genoa, this doesn't mean that the man who gave Schettino his job wasn't somebody from the South who was doing his bro a favor... and of course your Godfather, Sopranos and Goodfellas citation. There is nothing better suited to understand Italian culture than watching movies and TV series produced and directed by Americans. The directors of The Godfather and of Goodfellas were both Italian Americans. I could have threw in Get Shorty for good measure. Are you saying that these aren't honest depictions of Southern Italian mobster culture? Besides, like I said, there's a reason we keep getting movies about Italians and not about the Dutch or the Polish. The topper is that your article completely fails to mention that people in Italy have the highest IQ on Earth outside of a handful of East Asian countries and live long and healthy lives. Sounds like pretty good genetic stock to me. It fails to mention it because they don't. The Romans do, as do Italians points north of there (such as in Friuli). The longevity thing is a good point for investigation, though. It is well known that there a correlation between IQ and longevity, but it'll be interesting to see how that plays out on the European continent. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 13:44:11 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by AlM on Wed Jan 25 08:49:20 2012. Many historians consider the term "Dark Ages" extremely unfortunate. There was no time after the collapse of the Roman Empire that there weren't numerous centers of learning in Europe. We don't have detailed records of their achievements any more, but we know they existed.Precisely. Would you not think that that is interesting? Most of those learning centers were monasteries, and that is what preserved the vestiges of civilization from earlier eras. There was lots of turmoil during the Dark Ages that that period was aptly named. And if you are using the term in an economic context, it's hard to argue that the average peasant in 1400 was that much better off than the average peasant in 700. Good point, but this is part and parcel to what shaped European history: descent from the upper classes of society. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 25 13:54:08 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 13:44:11 2012. Precisely. Would you not think that that is interesting? Most of those learning centers were monasteries, and that is what preserved the vestiges of civilization from earlier eras. There was lots of turmoil during the Dark Ages that that period was aptly named.I accept the premise that there was a "Dark Age" but do not consider it synonymous with the Middle Ages. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 16:47:31 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 25 13:54:08 2012. No, nor is it. The High Middle Ages (~1000-the Renaissance) saw considerable progress from the earlier epoch. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 16:55:07 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 16:47:31 2012. Agreed.The so-called Dark Ages are roughly defined as circa 476-AD to about 1000 AD. Not only would Protestantism not exist for another half-millenium from the end of that epoch but neither did Eastern Orthodoxy for a few more years. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 16:56:40 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 25 00:55:29 2012. Hiugh Hewitt is your history teacher?No wonder you spout such ignorance. Turn off the radio. Go to the library. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 25 17:30:03 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 16:55:07 2012. But that period was the peak of the Byzantine Empire, which started to decline at around the same time the West started to improve. The decline was cemented in 1204.But I think it's fair to consider Orthodox Culture as being distinct from Western Culture (synonymous with Catholic Culture until 1517) except as compared to other more distant societies. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 18:11:30 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 13:40:23 2012. However, it couldn't be primarily responsible for the divide or even a significant part of it because there is little genetic overlap between Northern, Central, and Southern Italians.Exactly. The difference in IQ and economic development is based on historical migration patterns, especially after Unification. The more high achieving and adventurous ones left. The fearful, conservative or just plain dumb ones stayed. Notice how Puglia always stands out a bit compared to the rest of the South. Could it be that they are less culturally conservative than other Southerners and therefore throughout their history put in motion policies backed up by somehwat more progressive cultural mores that mitigated the brain drain by keeping some of their more liberal and entrepreneurial types closer to home? The answer is YES. Of course this was also aided by Puglia's geography. The fairly flat and fertile nature of the terrain and the proximity of one coast to the other aided commerce, trade and the exchange of ideas even in the horse-and-buggy era. This furthers liberalism and economic progress. But, doesn't that then go back to the inbreeding thing? A young, high IQ, college-bound Molisano will not be inbreeding when he goes to university in Torino and stays there after graduation and marries a girl he met there(usually also a college grad) who can be from anywhere. Your map only shows residents of the selected Regions. The Left Behind. It doesn't track down the people originally from those Regions who moved elsewhere. Not only do such people constribute to lowering the average IQ of the region they left behind but they contribute to ELEVATING the IQ of the region they moved to. It's why your data is worthless when grasping (or gasping) for some sort of underlying genetic factor as an explanation for varying IQs based on regional residence. Well, America has its own ethnic divides that break down trust and cooperation, something I'm going to delve into when I take a look at Appalachia and the American South. The Eskimos, the Blacks or the Ozarkers caused the Exxon Valdez disaster? Even though Costa is based in Genoa, this doesn't mean that the man who gave Schettino his job wasn't somebody from the South who was doing his bro a favor... It also doesn't mean that Schettino may put his toilet paper rolls paper front vs paper back when wiping his ass. You are grasping at straws. The directors of The Godfather and of Goodfellas were both Italian Americans. And Jermaine Jones is an American-German. Who cares? They know about as much about Italy as you do about Cameroon. Are you saying that these aren't honest depictions of Southern Italian mobster culture? Those are somewhat honest depictions of AMERICAN mobster culture. The real people involved in the real events depicted in "Goodfellas" were also of Irish, Jewish and Anglo origins plus African-Americans and others. It doesn't get more American than that. They were even less "Italian" than Snooki. Besides, like I said, there's a reason we keep getting movies about Italians and not about the Dutch or the Polish. It's because Italians have spunk and are interesting. It's also why Americans keep making movies about the Ancient Romans as opposed to whatever boring shit was happening in Estonia and Finland at the time. You are gonna underpin your blog content based on whatever Hollywood puts out? If that's the case, I should start a wannabe-scholarly blog about WW2 POW camps based on "Hogan's Heroes". I'd be honored to solicit your input. It fails to mention it because they don't. The Romans do, The Romans do because so many Rome residents (like residents of other world cities) are not from Rome. They are high performance folks from those "lower IQ" regions and elsewhere (like other other countries) that you like to bash so much. The longevity thing is a good point for investigation, though. It is well known that there a correlation between IQ and longevity, but it'll be interesting to see how that plays out on the European continent. There is a correlation because higher IQ people produce more physicians, medical researchers and scientists that allow it to happen. They also produce the top flight administrators that make their medical facilities and health care systems run well. Italy has the second-best ranked health care system in the world and there is a reason for it. Erase those contents on your blog. I just smashed you presuppositions to pieces. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 18:12:26 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 25 17:30:03 2012. But I think it's fair to consider Orthodox Culture as being distinct from Western Culture (synonymous with Catholic Culture until 1517) except as compared to other more distant societies.Agreed. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 19:57:37 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 25 18:11:30 2012. Awesome!First and foremost, Occam's Razor is your friend. I'll return to that shortly. >>>However, it couldn't be primarily responsible for the divide or even a significant part of it because there is little genetic overlap between Northern, Central, and Southern Italians. Exactly. The difference in IQ and economic development is based on historical migration patterns, especially after Unification. The more high achieving and adventurous ones left. The fearful, conservative or just plain dumb ones stayed. So here you're saying that the differences in IQ and other personality traits of the various Italian regions are due to genetic differences between them while here: It's why your data is worthless when grasping (or gasping) for some sort of underlying genetic factor as an explanation for varying IQs based on regional residence. You're saying that they're not. Which is it? As it turns out, it simply could not be the case that even a sustained northward brain drain is the source of the differences in the Italian population, because there is no genetic overlap! Unless the assortment happened a long time ago (which is possible), there would be a whole smattering of Southern genes among Northern populations. There isn't any. >>>Well, America has its own ethnic divides that break down trust and cooperation, something I'm going to delve into when I take a look at Appalachia and the American South. The Eskimos, the Blacks or the Ozarkers caused the Exxon Valdez disaster? My point was that a good portion of America's dysfunction is due to its ethnic diversity, and not even the under-performing ones per se, but the fact that there are so many different groups. I wasn't saying that "Eskimos or Blacks cause shipwrecks and undersea explosions," more that the institutional dysfunctions caused by American diversity play a role in such tragedies. But let's not forget, shit does happen. This is especially the case with the Exxon Valdez. But sometimes, what's especially telling is what happens after that, as we saw with the Costa Concordia, the BP disaster, and with the Nordlys. >>>Even though Costa is based in Genoa, this doesn't mean that the man who gave Schettino his job wasn't somebody from the South who was doing his bro a favor... It also doesn't mean that Schettino may put his toilet paper rolls paper front vs paper back when wiping his ass. You are grasping at straws. Am I? And I'm sure these things will all come out, and we'll see. >>>Are you saying that these aren't honest depictions of Southern Italian mobster culture? Those are somewhat honest depictions of AMERICAN mobster culture. And where are most Italian Americans from? Yup, Southern Italy. For the record, every documentary or crime expose I've seen about REAL mafiosos does make them seem very similar to what is portrayed on screen. And then there's this. The real people involved in the real events depicted in "Goodfellas" were also of Irish, Jewish and Anglo origins plus African-Americans and others. It doesn't get more American than that. Fair enough, but still... see above. Besides, like I said, there's a reason we keep getting movies about Italians and not about the Dutch or the Polish. It's because Italians have spunk and are interesting. It's also why Americans keep making movies about the Ancient Romans as opposed to whatever boring shit was happening in Estonia and Finland at the time. They sure are! Italians are nothing if entertaining. Italians are often charismatic and more masculine than those that originate to their north, and hence we like to watch movies about them. But so are Blacks. So are Rednecks. So are Scots and Irish to an extent. Lower IQ people are often entertaining and more spontaneous: The Colbert Report (Of course, not all lower IQ groups seem to be this way. Muslims and Hispanics don't seem to be very interesting groups in this sense.) This reasons for this are fairly simple. In harsh northern climates where survival called for men who were good providers (and where monogamy reigned), different traits were selected. As a result, northerners tend to be more introverted, and well, boring. Notice that the most boring societies tend to also be the more orderly ones. By contrast in warmer climes, especially by the time you reach Africa, men didn't need to be as much providers as they needed to be warriors, and this selected for more extroverted classical masculine men (and by extension, women as well, since they were the descendents of these men). In Southern Italy, with its inbred and hence highly clannish society, maintaining an air of extroverted masculinity was important. That and the complex networks of respect and familial loyalties makes for natural topics of interest for the movies. So we have a country (Italy) whose southern parts test like they have a lower average IQ, perform worse off economically as people with a lowered IQ would, has a layout where levels of corruption, strength of civic institutions, prevalence of nepotism and levels of historic inbreeding all correlate with this IQ difference, and for which there exist a fairly solid genetic divide. On top of which, the high-IQ/low-IQ divide sits on squarely on a line dividing where people one side (north) historically practiced late marriage and high levels of exogamy and on the other (south) earlier marriage and high levels of endogamy. The simplest explanation is that there are genetic differences in the population—likely stemming from historic mating patterns—that lead to these observed differences in IQ and behavior. Any other explanation is rather ad hoc and doesn't explain all the data we see, especially since this explanation seems rather parsimonious for other parts of the world. Occam's Razor is your friend. >>>>The longevity thing is a good point for investigation, though. It is well known that there a correlation between IQ and longevity, but it'll be interesting to see how that plays out on the European continent. There is a correlation because higher IQ people produce more physicians, medical researchers and scientists that allow it to happen. They also produce the top flight administrators that make their medical facilities and health care systems run well. Indeed, as well higher IQ people tend to have fewer health problems in general and take better care of themselves. But we've heard that Mediterraneans have a low incidence of hearth disease, but it'll be interesting to map life expectancy in Europe and compare it average IQ. I'd be interested to see how well the relationship holds, and see who are the outliers. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Jan 25 20:09:09 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 25 17:30:03 2012. Yes, that's a whole 'nother topic. |
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Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion... |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 25 21:32:59 2012, in response to Re: New Blog Post: This one is for SMAZ, LuchAAA, and italianstallion..., posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 24 19:44:28 2012. LIAR... |
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