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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Dec 29 12:22:11 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 29 10:51:07 2004. True. I don't agree with what the Protestants believe in (and they threw out LOTS of Catholic doctrine when they split, and they interpret the Bible MUCH diffeerently than Catholics do. However, I don't believe they are worshiping a "different" God, they just do it differently (right or wrong).They have some MAJOR differences. The real biggie is the way Catholics look at Communion and the way most Protestant Christians look at Communion. That is a MAJOR and deadly conflict right there. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Dec 29 12:54:46 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 29 10:33:10 2004. Great post. It speaks loads of truth, and is completely objective, in seeing both sides of this. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 29 14:51:30 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Dec 29 12:22:11 2004.  The real biggie is the way Catholics look at Communion and the way most Protestant Christians look at Communion. Yes. I was raised as a Presbyterian, and later became a Catholic. So one of the more difficult transitions was the Eucharist. But then the Presbyterians never understood their communion as being the Body and Blood of Christ, they understand their actions as a "rememberance" of the Last Supper. If that is what it is, then that if fine with me. Some Protestants are closer to Catholic than others. Episcopalians are the closest since their split was political rather than ideological. Lutherans are next, they were looking at abuses in the Church of their day, and banned all that was banned in scripture. Other Protestants (Calvin) Banned all that was not specifically required in scripture. Others just do their own thing, and find something scriptural to support it. The Presbyterians are not so much worried if Calvin would recognize them as that Jesus would recognize them. That is a fairly decent standard to hold a Christian to, eh? Bottom Line: I can look at a Presbyterian communion service and know what it is they are doing, and say, yes that is valid for what it is. I could receive it in fellowship if I felt so inclined, understanding that it was not the body of Christ and did not satisify the requirement of receiving communion. I would not do so because in might give scandal to others who would not understand that I understood what the difference was. They can look at our euchrist and worry about how we put Christ in that bread, or that the Church will not share it with them because they cannot see it our way. My parents did not (were not invited to) receive communion when I was professed as a monk. Popes and Bishops notwithstanding we would not deny communion to someone who presented himself for communion unless we *knew* there was a reason for this person not to receive. We frequently let other Christians receive at our mass if there is other reason for a eccumenical gesture, and usually because that person was willing to accept that our Eucharist was the true Body and Blood of Christ, even if their denomination does not believe that of their own communion. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Dec 29 16:36:43 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 29 14:51:30 2004. Even though I am Catholic, I understand the Presbyterian religion quite well, as my father is Presbeyterian, and my mother is Catholic. My parents were married in the Catholic Church (allowed under the condition that the children would be raised Catholic - so that is how I was raised Catholic). However, although my father was never a "go to church every Sunday" type of person, on rare occasions, when he did go, I would go with him sometimes as a kid.It was quite different than the Catholic mass. I was there a few times when they did their communion services, which was so different than the Catholic Eucharist. My father is quite spiritual, but he's not a church person at all, unlike my mother which is in fact a "go to church every Sunday" type of person. Episcopal is, as you said quite similar to the Catholic mass. Right down to the stations of the cross on the walls, and I think the saints are even recognized (unlike many of the other Protestand churches). |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Clayton on Wed Dec 29 18:14:43 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by vengence on Mon Dec 27 01:34:51 2004. Again, do you see a race? |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 11:44:44 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 29 10:33:10 2004. Angels and prophets are not manifestations of God! Hebrew uses the same word for 'angel' and 'messenger' -- that's all an angel is.A prophet is a person (fully human, not God) who can receive communication from God. I'm hardly an expert, but my understanding is that Catholicism, and Christianity in general, claims that a person named Jesus is a deity. Judaism rejects that. Thus far we agree. The point I'm making is that Judaism doesn't just reject it coincidentally, but that it goes against Judaism's core theology. Obviously Christianity considers itself an branch of Judaism, but it has to implicitly redefine Judaism in order to make that possible. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 11:47:27 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 29 10:40:12 2004. That's a logical impossibility unless you have a loose definition of "one and indivisible."We don't. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 11:56:02 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 29 10:57:32 2004. The Septuagint is a Jewish translation of the Bible into Greek. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 12:24:31 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 11:44:44 2004. Angels and prophets are not manifestations of God! Hebrew uses the same word for 'angel' and 'messenger' -- that's all an angel is.That is true in Christianity also. Angels or prophets are "messangers". Of course Christianity does not look at Jesus as a prophet, like Islam does. I don't know if Jews look at Jesus as a prophet or not, I don't think it is denied by them that he existed, but I don't know if they look at him as a prophet, or "just some guy". I'm hardly an expert, but my understanding is that Catholicism, and Christianity in general, claims that a person named Jesus is a deity. Yes, they do. However, I don't know if that is how it started at the beginning. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 30 12:42:29 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 12:24:31 2004. Catholicism, and Christianity in general, claims that a person named Jesus is a deity Yes. Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity. We believe that God appeared to men as Jesus, the Christ or Messiah. We believe that God (Father), Jesus (Son), and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same. I have been spending several hours reading the sites that David of Broadway posted earlier, and am impressed. There is nothing that they say about the nature of God that we cannot agree with whole-heartedly, given the understanding of the Trinity as explained above. You say that God is Omnipresent: God is present in all places at all times...; He is God of all nations. If he can be in all places, if his spirit can be everyhere, even in all persons, then is it too far a leap to say: "yeah... those Christians can believe it that way if they want to, but we believe it this way." |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by R33 9139 on Thu Dec 30 12:43:18 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Dec 28 22:58:48 2004. "Google doesn't do Latin."Really? http://www.google.com/intl/la/ |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 30 12:46:26 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 11:56:02 2004. My Bad! You are correct, I said Latin and meant Greek. Yes I was aware that it was a Jewish translation, that is exactly why it is so respected and revered by the early Church Fathers. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 12:57:02 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 30 12:42:29 2004. I have been spending several hours reading the sites that David of Broadway posted earlier, and am impressed. There is nothing that they say about the nature of God that we cannot agree with whole-heartedly, given the understanding of the Trinity as explained above.Then I'm afraid my explanations have not been clear. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 12:58:41 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by R33 9139 on Thu Dec 30 12:43:18 2004. Google Translate doesn't do Latin. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:19:52 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Dec 29 06:13:41 2004. Not if you're Russian. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:21:57 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Anon_e_mouse on Wed Dec 29 10:36:24 2004. And pray tell exactly what is civilized about those countries? The British monarchy is the laughingstock of Western Europe, Spain isn't much better, and the Greeks... don't get me started.Not torturing their own citizens, having vaguely decent cities, and generally being decent liberal places with enough trains for the citizens not to have to ride on the roof. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:26:08 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Dec 28 23:22:01 2004. Leviticus 19:13. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:30:32 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Dec 28 23:03:42 2004. Merely to the extent that the Synod of Jamnia (traditionally dated to AD 90) removed parts of the Old Testament. That has been the traditional Christian criticism of the shorter canon. Didn't stop Luther adopting the un-Christian abridgment though. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 15:31:08 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:26:08 2004. Leviticus 19:13lEVITICUS 19:1-37 1. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2. Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy:for I the LORD your God am holy. 3. Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths:I am the LORD your God. 4. Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods:I am the LORD your God. 5. And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will. 6. It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow:and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire. 7. And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted. 8. Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the LORD:and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 9. And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10. And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger:I am the LORD your God. 11. Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. 12. And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God:I am the LORD. 13. Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him:the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.14. Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God:I am the LORD. 15. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment:thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty:but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. 16. Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people:neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour:I am the LORD. 17. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart:thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:I am the LORD. 19. Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind:thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed:neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. 20. And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. 21. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. 22. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done:and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him. 23. And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised:three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you:it shall not be eaten of. 24. But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal. 25. And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof:I am the LORD your God. 26. Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood:neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. 27. Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. 28. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you:I am the LORD. 29. Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. 30. Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary:I am the LORD. 31. Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them:I am the LORD your God. 32. Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God:I am the LORD. 33. And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt:I am the LORD your God. 35. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure. 36. Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have:I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt. 37. Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them:I am the LORD. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:38:29 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 11:47:27 2004. Not a loose one, just a neo-Platonic one. The persons of the Trinity are consubstantial and perfect, so there must be an Unity of the Godhead. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:44:19 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Dec 28 22:58:48 2004. Okay, here's an English translation (it's a bit archaicly phrased). This text isn't used very much any more as it has an awful way of getting people confused, upset, and offended.The Athanasian Creed 1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. 2. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 3. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, 4. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. 5. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. 6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. 7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. 8. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. 9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. 10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. 11. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. 12. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. 13. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. 14. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. 15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. 16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. 17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. 18. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. 19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord, 20. So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. 21. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. 22. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. 23. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. 24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. 25. And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another; 26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. 27. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. 29. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 30. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; 31. God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world; 32. Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting; 33. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood. 34. Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; 35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking assumption of the Manhood into God; 36. One altogether, not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. 37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; 38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. 39. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, 40. From whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. 41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies 42. And shall give account for their own works. 43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. 44. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 15:50:26 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:44:19 2004. That is the Trinity. We do not believe in three Gods (as some claim), only one, and that one God is indivisible (which again sounds familiar). |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:01:30 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Dec 28 23:02:26 2004. The Christian argument would be that your religion changed the standards after the event. In doing so, it ceased to be the true descendant of the religion of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses.People have argued about this for the past two millennia (or 1700 years if you believe Illig). Ultimately, what it comes down to is that the modern Jewish and Christian positions are incompatible and that neither is capable of convincing the adherents of the other. The best that can be hoped for is that the adherents of each respect the other's right to believe whatever they wish, so long as practicing those beliefs do not entail illegal acts. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:07:39 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Dec 28 22:49:16 2004. What my God said to Moses at Sinai and what yours said are quite different. No surprise there, or else Christianity and Judaism would be identical. (What my God said to Moses excludes any possibility of what eventually became Christian theology.)So the Lord said unto Moses, "by the way, I'm not ever going to use my omnipotence to ever become incarnate"? I don't think anyone has evidence of that. In the absence of that, we're reduced to criticism. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:09:12 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Dec 28 22:40:55 2004. Of course. You don't believe in the Maccabees. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:11:42 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 15:50:26 2004. I once caused a stir in Chapel (Anglican) by pointing out that it was one of the days where that text is prescribed to be read. Needless to say, we got the Apostles' Creed, because the Chaplain didn't quite believe in the Athanasian. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:12:24 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 15:31:08 2004. Good stuff, isn't it? |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 16:15:56 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:11:42 2004. In the Catholic Church, they read the Nicene Creed, after the sermon:THE NICENE CREED We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried. On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy universial and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. I believe we read the Apostle's Creed (which is slightly different) on occasion too, not sure when though. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 16:18:37 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 16:15:56 2004. Actually, what I just copy and pasted may be the Nicene Creed from a church other than Catholic, the words are slightly different in the Catholic version, but it's the same idea. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 17:49:58 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:12:24 2004. One of my favorites. (And there are a lot more than ten right there.) |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 17:52:48 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:38:29 2004. Sounds like a loose definition of "Unity" to me. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 30 17:58:07 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 17:49:58 2004. And Moses came down from the mountain and said... The good news is I got it down to ten. The Bad News is Adultery is still one of them. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 18:15:31 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 15:44:19 2004. Thank you. That was very interesting.Use the numbers however you like, but the basic principles of Jewish theology still reject the possibility of a human being as a part of God. I find the first and last verses particularly interesting. For all this talk of belief, it's not something Jews explicitly worry about on a regular basis. God expects us to observe his commandments, and we try our best to follow suit. The standard litmus test of an observant Jew is whether he observes the Sabbath, and indeed, failure to observe the Sabbath disqualifies a Jew from serving as a witness. (There are other disqualifications, like gambling and dealing in the produce of the Sabbatical year. For more details, see here, p. 70, beginning with "MISHNA III," continuing to the middle of p. 79. This stuff is much easier to follow in the original Aramaic if you can get past the language hurdle.) Belief is assumed and almost never discussed. And, of course, Judaism doesn't have a notion of having to be saved. Each individual has the power to repent; belief doesn't even enter into the picture. That's what Yom Kippur is all about. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 18:16:39 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:01:30 2004. I'm glad we could reach agreement. How many posts did it take? |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by BIE on Thu Dec 30 18:17:51 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 30 17:58:07 2004. HOWLING |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 18:18:39 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 16:09:12 2004. I'm not sure what you mean. The Book of the Maccabees isn't part of the Jewish Bible but I don't think anyone denies its historicity. It's printed in the Birnbaum Siddur (prayer book) for all to see. |
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The Nicene Creed Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by British James on Thu Dec 30 18:58:07 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 16:15:56 2004. In the Catholic Church, they read the Nicene Creed, after the sermon:Interestingly, the English text doesn't match the Latin one. Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, the Father(, the) Almighty factorem coeli et terrae, maker of heaven and earth, visibilium omnium, et invisibilium. of all that is(,) This may seem minor, but just consider the theological implications! Et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum, And ( Filium Dei unigenitum. the only-begotten Son of God, Why do you think it says "unigenitum" not just "unicum"? Et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, Genitum, non factum, begotten not made, consubstantialem Patri: of one What is "being" as an attribute anyway? Anathemas flew about this clause in the 3rd Century per quem omnia facta sunt. Through Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem descendit de coelis. Who For us men and for our salvation May seem gratuitous and outdated, but "men" defends against the opposite evils of defining the act of salvation too narrowly ("Catholics") or too widely ("living creatures"). Et incarnatus est de spiritu sancto ex [alternative reading: et] Maria Virgine: et homo factus est. by He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. [Alternative reading: He became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary... - strangely enough, Anglicans like this one] Crucifixus etiam pro nobis, sub Pontio Pilato passus, et sepultus est. Et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas. On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; Et ascendit in coelum: sedet ad dexteram Patris. He ascended into heaven and Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, judicare vivos et mortuos: cujus regni non erit finis. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem: qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. And ( who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who With the Father and the Son Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. And ( "Universal" - yuck! But it does mean the same as "Catholic" and avoids people thinking it just means them. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. We Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum. Here make the sign of the cross. Et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen. and the life of the world to come. Amen. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 19:06:18 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 18:16:39 2004. Far too many, but, hey, it's OTChat! |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 19:07:35 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 18:16:39 2004. I like that one too, and agree to it.Wanna go for 600 posts anyway? |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 19:15:34 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Dec 30 18:15:31 2004. And, of course, Judaism doesn't have a notion of having to be saved.That "saved" thing gets more and more dramatic, the more and more fanatical the extremists are. For example, you would not really see a typical Catholic, (or even the reputible Protestant religions) jumping into a subway train screaming, "BELIEVE AND BE SAVED!!!!". "JESUS IS COMING". We leave thatr for the extremists. That is a comical fanatic to even your most devout Catholic, etc. My first reaction is, "Isn't that nice, Jesus is coming to Union Square....so what's for lunch." I have no patience for extremists twisting my religion to some kind of freak-show, which is basically what people like that have done. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 19:19:17 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 19:15:34 2004. Well, everyone has their loonies. I'm far happier to let the loonies shout things on the subway than to have them blowing things up. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Dec 30 19:21:27 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Dec 30 19:19:17 2004. This is true. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by The Rockaway Kid on Thu Dec 30 23:44:19 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 13:35:08 2004. I'm a jew, haven't married a christian girl, and quite frankly, would never claim jesus as my lord and savior... not even in song. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by The Rockaway Kid on Thu Dec 30 23:47:51 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by vengence on Sun Dec 26 01:35:09 2004. Where in the constitution does it say there shall be no pictures of nude women or gay men? Show me where it says that, and I'll pay for johnny cochrain to fight it for you! |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by The Rockaway Kid on Thu Dec 30 23:57:28 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:27:46 2004. The liberal movement is about allowing people to understand people's cultures, yet not force them to partake of them.So thats why we have black history, hispanic month, so people would UNDERSTAND other cultures, and not be biased. Yes, catholics are the majority. As such, mostly everyone knows the white catholic culture; we do not need it jammed down our throats another day, because it's jammed down our throats every other day (liquor laws on sunday, the weekend can be labeled religious even though it celebrates the jewish sabbath as well). It is your responsibility as the majority to be tolerant of the minority. Because you do such a bad job at it (KKK), it is important to be educated in tolerance. If you do not learn about Black Heritage and Black History, then I bet you'd think less of them than the Confederates did in the Civil War Era (or the same). So don't give me the B.S. about equality... i've seen charlie brown's christmas many many many times on public broadcasting, and have yet to see "Charlie Brown observes the Yom Kippour fast" |
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Re: No, It's the Stalinists?? |
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Posted by The Rockaway Kid on Fri Dec 31 00:07:23 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Stalinists??, posted by Verbal Kent on Sat Dec 25 22:02:36 2004. Hatred? Jeez... I don't get it.If we see our life being threatened by being forced to celebrate christmas (and yes, I was forced in school to sing "silent night", "o come all ye faithful", and a few other religious songs), and decide to react, then why are we all of a sudden some "hate filled people trying to destroy america's foundation"? First of all, if our nation depends on Christianity, then, being a jew, i'm expendable, aren't I? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by The Rockaway Kid on Fri Dec 31 00:09:29 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by jimmymc25 on Sun Dec 26 14:48:42 2004. And there is no problem with that.......oh wait, there is!! These christians are the same ones who get upset when college kids are asked to read the Koran. Don't say it's to promote a religion if you have EVER said that we should learn "about christmas" I hate it how sometimes, the religious right can be so damn hypocritical. |
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Re: Sex Pistols Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 31 00:58:22 2004, in response to Sex Pistols Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Rail Blue on Tue Dec 28 22:31:06 2004. The Sex Pistols ROCK! Only thy could wreck "My Way" so masterfullyThat was mostly Sid Vicious. If you really wanted it wrecked, Johnny Rotten should've handled the lead . . . and no "orchestral" instruments added . . . |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 31 07:27:16 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:27:46 2004. The government putting a Hispanic symbol on their property for Hispanic Month is no different than the government putting a menorah there for Chanukah.Have you ever taken a logic course in college? |
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Re: No, It's the Stalinists?? |
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Posted by Verbal Kent on Fri Dec 31 13:37:53 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Stalinists??, posted by The Rockaway Kid on Fri Dec 31 00:07:23 2004. No and I've never identified my religious affilliations regarding this discussion. I happen to be a Jew by choice and not due to coincidence of birth. Yet I've never felt threatened by celebrating holidays of any other religion. I doubt that singing "Silent Night" will make me any less pious in the eyes of my God. But it will make me more tollerant of others and their feelings. |
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