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(899789)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 16 18:02:58 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jan 16 14:18:11 2012.

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Israel is the business of every Jew.

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(899794)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU Commission now says they know better than the ratings agencies

Posted by RockParkMan on Mon Jan 16 18:10:41 2012, in response to EUEUEUEUEU Commission now says they know better than the ratings agencies, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 16 14:20:29 2012.

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Its about time someone took those bastards on. GO EU!!!

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(899799)

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EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 16 18:13:58 2012, in response to EUEUEUEUEU gets *big credit downgrade*—Brussels, Beijing slam ratings agencies, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 14 12:28:12 2012.

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EU Observer

Eurozone bailout fund loses triple A rating

2012.01.16 @ 20:43
By Valentina Pop
BRUSSELS — The Eurozone's bail-out fund was downgraded by one notch to AA+ by the US ratings agency Standard&Poor's on Monday (16 January) — a move likely to put an extra financial burden on contributing nations, many of whom were themselves downgraded last week.

Designed to fund the rescue packages for Greece, Ireland and Portugal, the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) owed its triple A rating to guarantees from eurozone countries, two of which — France and Austria — saw their own top rating cut by one notch on Friday, along with other countries further down the ratings ladder.

“The EFSF’s obligations are no longer fully supported either by guarantees from EFSF members rated AAA by S&P, or by AAA rated securities. Credit enhancements sufficient to offset what we view as the reduced creditworthiness of guarantors are currently not in place,” Standard & Poor's said in a statement.

The move is likely to lower the firepower of the fund, unless contributing countries step up their loan guarantees to the facility.
"The downgrade has a consequence — if it wants to keep its triple A status, it will have to lend less or, if not, the cost of lending will go up. If it wants to maintain the same capacity to lend, at the same price, you will have to have additional contributions from member states," European Central Bank chief Mario Draghi said on Monday evening during a hearing in the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

EFSF chairman Klaus Regling "took note" of the downgrade and argued that its lending capacity will not be changed.

"The EFSF has sufficient means to fulfill its commitments under current and potential future adjustment programmes until the European Stability Mechanism (permanent bailout fund) becomes operational in July 2012.”

Eurozone finance ministers chairman Jean Claude Juncker, whose country is hosting the EFSF, also sought to downplay the effects of the downgrade.

"S&P's decision will not reduce EFSF’s lending capacity of €440 billion. EFSF will continue to be backed by unconditional and irrevocable guarantees by euro area member states."

He added that the other two major ratings agencies, Fitch and Moody's have not downgraded the fund or indicated they would do so.

Earlier that day, a commission spokesman went to some lengths to downplay the importance of Friday's decision to downgrade Austria, Cyprus, France, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain. He argued that ratings agencies are not privy to all the economic and financial data about member states that the EU commission has.

ECB chief Draghi also noted that "all ratings agencies had a terrible loss of reputation over last crisis" and said that his institution in the last few years has avoided having a "mechanical reliance" on them.

Critics says that ratings agencies, having failed to spot the buildup to the financial crisis in 2008, are now being overzealous to make up for it.

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(899800)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by RockParkMan on Mon Jan 16 18:14:13 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 16 18:02:58 2012.

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Ayeppa.

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(899801)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P

Posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jan 16 18:17:56 2012, in response to EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 16 18:13:58 2012.

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S&P has been a binge lately. I seriously am thinking somethings going on at S&P there is a motive here.

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(899803)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 16 18:21:40 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jan 16 18:17:56 2012.

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Pretty simple ... what that socialist Krugman warned of a couple of years ago about "austerity" is coming home to roost so visibly that even bankers are noticing the destructiveness of the "conservative agenda" ... at least here, our "conservatives" are too busy pissing on one another while over there, the destruction is in high gear.

The ratings agencies are demanding that they stop the stupid over there but Germany just pressed the pedal to the floor. That's why.

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(899806)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jan 16 18:24:54 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 16 18:02:58 2012.

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Well said.

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(899849)

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EUEUEUEUEU dreams of "flying cars", other robotics advances

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 16 20:10:27 2012, in response to EUEUEUEUEU Olog, posted by RockParkMan on Sat Nov 12 14:58:17 2011.

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Yup, flying cars will certainly help 'em with all their "emissions" problems (exposing the scam again).

Der Spiegel
01/13/2012
Airborne Commuters

EU Project Sees Flying Cars in Europe's Skies

By Hilmar Schmundt

An EU-funded project is developing technology that could make flying cars a reality. But to avoid the inevitable dangers of a crowded sky, researchers are borrowing lessons learned from robots and bats.

It's a special kind of dressage: When Raffaello D'Andrea lifts his right arm, a plate-sized helicopter obediently starts its engine. When he moves his finger through the air, the device follows as if on a horse's lead.

D'Andrea is a drone trainer. The professor is standing in socks with his legs apart on the floor of a gymnasium-like building at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH) in Zürich. The floor is covered with mats to soften the impact when the expensive devices crash to the ground. And lest any errant drones escape from the "Flying Machine Arena" in the Mechanical Engineering Department, the 10-by-10-meter (1,075-square-foot) interior space is also surrounded by a net.

Curious students are gathered outside a glass viewing panel. They can hardly believe their eyes when they behold flying robots reacting to hand signs like trained falcons.

"This is actually the easiest exercise," says D'Andrea, one of the directors of the ETH's Institute for Dynamic Systems and Control (IDSC). He raises his left hand, and the helicopter does a somersault, then another and another, until D'Andrea lowers his hand again. He claps, and the drone promptly lands.

At first sight, the way D'Andrea controls the device with gestures might seem like magic. But the researcher is aiming for something quite different than magic: He wants to build flying robots that are so ordinary and simple that anyone can control them. "Today's cars are my ideal," he says. "They are nearly perfect; all you have to do is put gas in them and change the oil from time to time."

But even as he watches his flying robots, D'Andrea's thoughts are already elsewhere: in a car flying above the clouds. To bring this dream closer to reality, he wants to teach his drones to do what their pilots want while at the same time avoiding all the beginners' mistakes that come with navigating in three dimensions.

The apparent magic of D'Andrea's gesture-controlled devices is based on a simple trick: The Kinect motion sensor of a conventional game console is on the ground observing the trainer. A computer translates his gestures into control commands and transmits them via wireless network to the flying drone, while eight ceiling-mounted cameras monitor its position. The individual components are readily available in any electronics store, but the way they interact are reminiscent of the magical Quidditch games in the "Harry Potter" films.

The Robot Revue

Although only in his mid-40s, D'Andrea already has a wide-ranging career behind him. Born near Venice, he grew up in Canada and studied engineering in Toronto. As a professor at Cornell University, in Ithaca, New York, he and his team won the Robot Soccer World Cup, or RoboCup, a number of times. He was also one of the founders of Kiva Systems, a company that makes systems employing mobile robots for warehouse automation, which are used by companies such as Walgreens and Staples.

In 2007, the ETH convinced D'Andrea to move to Zürich by promising him the robot arena. By now, he and his students have assembled a true revue.

The helicopters, each or which is equipped with four rotors, have alphabetized names: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta. Bravo and Charlie are hovering in the middle of the arena, playing tennis. A device resembling a small badminton racket is mounted above the rotors of each helicopter. By nimbly flying up and down, the machines bat a ball back and forth, sometimes up to 20 times. D'Andrea and his students are sitting next door in the control room, monitoring the behavior of the tennis-playing "quadcopters."

In the next act, a Ph.D. student places a rod on the back of a robot. It then hovers with such sensitivity and precision that it manages to balance the rod vertically on its back.

Of course, this is nothing compared to the quadcopter that Sergei Lupazhin, another Ph.D. student, has taught to play the piano. It hovers from one key to the next playing "Jingle Bells." The scratch marks on the keyboard are the only thing to betray test flight crashes.

D'Andrea wants to impart something that could be called "motion intelligence" to everyday objects. Computers can already film, navigate and speak, but he also wants to automate their movement in space. For the 2001 Venice Biennale art exhibit, he developed a curious table that rolled toward — and unsettled — its visitors.

The robotics expert now turns his attention to architecture. In a mix of ballet, performance art and slapstick, Alpha, Bravo and the other helicopters build a tower six meters high out of 1,500 building blocks. An exhibition in Orléans, France, used the system to offer a utopian vision of a future in which tall buildings are built by flying robots rather than construction workers.

Personal Planes

Though playful-looking, the aerial performances are actually part of a determined European effort to challenge the supremacy of Japan and the United States, the two superpowers in the world of robotics.

Japan is home to a dominant share of the more than 1 million industrial robots around the world. Although these are most often found in its automobile plants, the country has also come up with miraculous robots, such as Honda's humanoid robot Asimo, which can speak, walk and dance. The US military, on the other hand, makes headlines with its remote-controlled combat drones, which use missiles to kill people in Pakistan and Afghanistan. In fact, the US Air Force already trains more people to operate drones with joysticks than pilots to fly bombers and fighter jets.

But now Europe wants to soar past the competition — with partially autonomous flying cars. The €4.3-million ($5.5-million) EU program called "myCopter" is designed to help develop the third dimension for personal travel as part of a so-called "personal air transport system" (PATS).

The myCopter consortium includes the German Aerospace Center (DLR), the University of Liverpool, the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) and the Max Planck Institute for Biological Cybernetics, based in the southwestern German city of Tübingen. "Flying cars are not a question of if, but when," says Heinrich Bülthoff, director of the myCopter working group in Tübingen.

Avoiding Chaos in the Sky

Of course, the dream is almost as old as the airplane itself. As long ago as 1917, a prototype made the first hops into the sky. In the United States, the Terrafugia project is on the verge of introducing its flying-car concept vehicle on the market.

Still, if large numbers of commuters are to fly through cities in the future, collisions and crashes are to be expected, unless the machines are largely self-guided.

"Our models are the swarms of starlings that fly south in the fall," says Dario Floreano, a professor casually dressed in a white shirt and baggy cargo pants. Seven flying robots are hanging from the ceiling like bats, dangling until given a command.

"We have already managed to have 10 drones fly in a swarm," Floreano says enthusiastically. Within the myCopter team, his laboratory at the ETH in Lausanne is in charge of teaching the flying machines how to communicate with each other in order to utilize the air space efficiently and without colliding.

Outside the laboratory window, several lightweight flying wings are circling steadily in a strong wind 100 meters above the parking lot. The robots communicate with each other to decide how to choreograph their movements. Unlike the helicopters in Zürich, they do not require a central control device. A computer in the laboratory merely records their behavior to hone it even more precisely.

In a sense, the drones learned their swarming behavior from Batman. It is based on the so-called Reynolds algorithm developed by the American programmer Craig Reynolds in 1986. Reynolds later created digital swarms of bats for films, such as "Batman Returns."

Reynolds recognized that the complex choreography of a flock of birds or a school of fish is surprisingly simple. It requires no more than a few simple commands, such as "maintain the same distance from all neighbors" and "fly with them in a single direction."

The more Floreano imagines a future with flying cars, the simpler his models become. "The next thing we'll be doing is studying the flying behavior of insects," he says. His team is experimenting with palm-sized flying devices equipped with seven "compound eyes," or tiny cameras taken out of computer mice.

Learning Through Failure

Meanwhile, back in the flight arena in Zürich, Floreano's colleague D'Andrea is starting the grand finale of his variety show. To the booming sound of "Armageddon," a rock ballad from the Canadian band Prism, Alpha and the other drones dance in the air, pirouetting and gliding up and down with the help of a software called "Choreography Generator."

During an especially daring aerial maneuver, Charlie flips over and crashes. "Great, we'll have to look at that," says D'Andrea as he hurries to the control room next door. "Crashes are great," he adds. "We can learn a lot from them."

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan

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(899861)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jan 16 21:12:10 2012, in response to EUEUEUEUEU dreams of "flying cars", other robotics advances, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 16 20:10:27 2012.

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Flying cars, just wait, considering the number of crazy drivers we already have won't be available unless the owner has a first class pilot's license.

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(899868)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 16 21:54:59 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances, posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jan 16 21:12:10 2012.

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There's no such thing as a "first class pilot's license," Dan. There's first,second, and third class flight physicals. There's private pilot, commercial pilot, air transport pilot, plus sport, recreational, and student pilot licenses.

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(899871)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P

Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 16 21:58:43 2012, in response to EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 16 18:13:58 2012.

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Old news now. People here do have access to news broadcasts and the internet, you know.

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(899883)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 16 23:05:43 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU's *bailout fund* gets downgraded to AA+ from AAA by S&P, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 16 21:58:43 2012.

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Even with a story dated January 16? This is specific to the bailout fund, not the countries.

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(899893)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 17 00:33:39 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances, posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jan 16 21:12:10 2012.

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There is a flying car (or at least a roadable aircraft), the Terrafugia Transition.



But it's a Light Sport Aircraft, so it doesn't require a private pilots license or a 'first class pilots license' (whatever that is), and the light sport pilot certificate doesn't even require a medical certificate.

It'll be interesting to see the impact this has on GA airports. Enforcement of ramp fees (which makes up a non-trivial percentage of revenue, particularly at fields that lack flight training or maintenance facilities) is usually dependent upon the pilot having to park their plane and walk through a gate to pay their fee or buy fuel. If the Terrafugia is a success, there are conceivably a number of airports where a pilot can avoid ramp fees by driving something like a Terrafugia onto the taxiways from outside. The potential exists for small GA airports to take a significant revenue hit if pilots transition from conventional Cessnas, Pipers and Beeches to the Transition. To prevent further contraction of our already battered General Aviation airport system groups like AOPA may be forced to choose between user fees and the subsidization of privately owned airports, or the loss of those fields.

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(899907)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:34:41 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 16 18:02:58 2012.

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I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that the majority of the most outspoken people on Israel related topics on this board are NOT Jewish.

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(899908)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:37:09 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Mon Jan 16 17:01:31 2012.

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The US certainly wasn't much of a safe haven during WWII for those trying to get out of Europe. Think of the St. Louis. Also, Truman was advised by practically everyone in his inner circle not to recognize Israel, fortunately he didn't listen. The insistence of some that the US should support Israel no questions asked is in some ways as harmful as those who look to discredit Israel at every opportunity.

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(899909)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:42:43 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Mon Jan 16 16:57:55 2012.

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I am a supporter of Zionism and consider myself to be a Zionist. But it is possible to be a Zionist while realizing that Israeli society has its flaws. The Haredim don't have the right to impose their lifestyle on the rest of the population. Right wing extremists don't have the right to vandalize Arab property or terrorize the Arabs living around them. While Israel is not an apartheid state, there are certain population groups that are discriminated against. Supporting those sorts of behaviors does not fall in line with Jewish values and teachings, and Zionism does not outweigh the responsibilities of Jews to treat their fellow Jews and non-Jews alike as they would want to be treated themselves.

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(899910)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 02:51:56 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:34:41 2012.

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What does that have to do with SLRT?

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(899911)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 17 03:15:49 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:34:41 2012.

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No ... we've pretty much learned to just STFU. I thank Terrorpin and a few others for that ... :(

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(899912)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 17 03:16:55 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:42:43 2012.

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Thank you! :)

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(899913)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 04:41:07 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 17 03:15:49 2012.

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Maybe it has to do with the utter ridiculousness of certain statements made with regard to Israel by various people here in the past?

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(899914)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 04:41:36 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 02:51:56 2012.

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AFAIK, he doesn't fall into the exception part of that statement.

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(899916)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 05:15:29 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 04:41:36 2012.

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AFAIK he does.

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(899919)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 08:02:37 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 04:41:36 2012.

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So now you're bring this down to what we in the '60s used to call the Authenticity Argument.

SLRT don't play that.

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(899920)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 17 08:08:18 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 17 00:33:39 2012.

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That's pretty cool.

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(899923)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 17 08:50:15 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:34:41 2012.

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Well, two in particular. With friends like Chris and Olog ...

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(899924)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 17 08:52:19 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:37:09 2012.

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IAWTP.

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(899930)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 09:55:25 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:37:09 2012.

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Tell me again how this empowers Europe to dictate where Jews can live.

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(899933)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 09:57:12 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 02:42:43 2012.

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Non-sequitar. Since you say you are a Zionist, maybe you could better tell me what you think Zionism is, not what it is not.

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(899934)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 10:02:16 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by AlM on Tue Jan 17 08:50:15 2012.

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LOL! This reminds me of what Netanyahu said when asked about U.S. Christians who support Israel. Specifically he was asked what would happen to their supprot when millennial Christians who expected the Second Coming of Jesus found that it wasn't happening.

Netanyahu's answer was very Jewish: "When that happens, I'll deal with it."

(Paraphrased)

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(899935)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 10:06:30 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 09:57:12 2012.

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Zionism is the hope of two thousand years, to be a free people in our land, the land of Zion and Jerusalem.

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(899937)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 17 10:16:24 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 08:02:37 2012.

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Seems like the libs over there like to play that canard. I called it out as a form of jingoism. If he likes the EU to dictate to Israel, he's opening a Pandora's box.

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(900026)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Jan 17 13:53:35 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 16 21:54:59 2012.

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I'm 100% against flying cars considering the number of nuts who drive cars now, like the yo-yos who refuse to use turn signals.

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(900032)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 13:57:55 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances, posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Jan 17 13:53:35 2012.

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Have you thought that perhaps these people would be prohibited from piloting flying cars? Perhaps if flying cars became common, we wouldn't design an entire society around them and wouldn't therefore be forced to water down the licensing requirements for the sake of maintaining our economy?

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(900047)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:08:34 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 17 10:16:24 2012.

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The EU and the US are each ignorant in their own ways of what is in Israel's interests and what the realities on the ground here actually are.

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(900049)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:10:07 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 08:02:37 2012.

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It is your credibility at stake here, not mine. Do as you please.

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(900053)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:11:42 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 09:55:25 2012.

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It doesn't, but the US isn't exactly the haven you make it out to be either.

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(900056)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Jan 17 14:12:57 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 13:57:55 2012.

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I don't know. My posts were for pulling the ridiculousness of the topic. Since we seem to have a lot of drivers on the roads that should not have been issued drivers licenses, and those are issued by the states, perhaps the current qualifications need tightening up.

Flying cars first showed up as a joke in 2000 on SubTalk.

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(900062)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:16:29 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 09:57:12 2012.

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I don't think the term has multiple definitions. Zionism is the movement promoting the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and their self determination in that territory. But you seem to be troubled by the fact that not all Zionists are in lockstep with each other. At least people in Israel are free to disagree with each other, since you seem to want to oppress that sort of thinking.

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(900076)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 14:25:30 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU dreams of ''flying cars'', other robotics advances, posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Jan 17 14:12:57 2012.

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The problem is that in Europe, people who can't drive ride mass transit. In the United States, with a few exceptions, people who can't drive drive anyway.

I use "can't drive" in this sense to mean people who are unqualified but are given licenses anyway because of low standards.

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(900093)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:45:49 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:16:29 2012.

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But you seem to be troubled by the fact that not all Zionists are in lockstep with each other. At least people in Israel are free to disagree with each other, since you seem to want to oppress that sort of thinking.

You are unusually focused on what you believe are my beliefs and opinions. You're a regular dimestore Freud. You don't seem to feel I have a right to any opinion divergent from yours, whether it is an overblown definition of "terrorist," or my take on bloody Europe's idea that they can dictate where Jews may live. You've told me I shouldn't post if I disagree with you, and you now ask why I have standing to question, not you, not Israel, but the EU.

So you are a Zionist and you've defined that. But you seem unappreciative that the time you are enjoying in Israel, even the relative peace there since the building of the "Apartheid Wall," was won with the sweat and the blood of Zionists who were as unwelcome in Tel Aviv as the "Settlers" now are in Judea and Sumaria.

You are a Jew whose butt is in Israel but your heart and mind seem to be stuck in American Revisionist Liberalism. You seem to see the Jews who choose to live where they please, in the historic land of Israel, as a problem, just like the historical Jews who felt that if they kept a low profile the latest Pogrom will pass them by.

Well let me tell you something. Gaza is now Judenrein; see the peace it's bought the people in southern Israel? Are they not "Settlers" in your view? Ask any Arab. When the West Bank is Judenrein, your last "barrier beach" will be washed away and the enemies of Israel will start on the pre-1967 land.

And I am not a Zionist as you have defined it. I have my doubts over the wisdom of Jews making their stand in Israel. Why? Because it seems that, after Hitler managed to scour most of Europe in the Mother of Pogroms and kill THREE OUT OF EVERY SEVEN JEWS LIVING IN THE WORLD, you think the problem is that Jews aren't liberal enough. So what I see is that Jews may have assembled themselves in the ultimate Ghetto and their current enemies see them thus assembled for E-Z Pogroming.

So do I see settlement in Juda and Samaria as a good idea? No. But what I DON'T feel I have standing to do is it sit back and tells Jews anywhere: "You can't live where you want. Not because it's dangerous, but because other Jews find you inconvenient."

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:46:33 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:11:42 2012.

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Changing the subject again.

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(900098)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:51:46 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:10:07 2012.

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Why do you think my credibility is at stake? I try to argue on the strength of my argument, not my genetics. And if you knew for certain I was a born-again Christian, a Hasid, or a Jew so Reformed that I break my fast after Yom Kippur with Pork Chops in Cream Gravy, what would that prove as to my credibility.

And why are you so sure of your credibility? That's why I call you rebbe.

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(900102)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:54:43 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 14:08:34 2012.

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The reality on the ground is that Jews are nearly universally hated in much of the world and that much of that same world believes that Jews live or die at their suffrance.

Your ignorance is the belief that if Jews just give up enough they will buy peace.

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 15:00:05 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:45:49 2012.

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I disagree with that. Israel is the refuge of Jews whose only choice is to move there or be killed. Believing that Jews should take a stand in their current homes is not incompatible with Zionism. If Israel existed in the 1930s, as many 6,000,000 Jews would have fled there and still would have been alive.* But I'm certain that if Israel tried to destroy Hitler the Western countries would complain like they cried about the destruction of the Iraqi reactor in 1981. Did anyone thank Israel in 1990 when it became clear that Saddam Hussein was a problem?

Note that I DO NOT believe that Israel was born out of the horrors of the holocaust. That is what irked me most about Obama's Cairo speech. Zionism is nationalism. Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation on Earth. I believe that had it not been for the holocaust, Israel would still have risen in the decolonization era.

*Actually most of them would be dead by now, but you know what I mean.

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 15:09:16 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:54:43 2012.

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The reality on the ground is that Jews are nearly universally hated in much of the world and that much of that same world believes that Jews live or die at their suffrance.

Your ignorance is the belief that if Jews just give up enough they will buy peace.

If you bothered to read what I've written in the past, you'd find that isn't what I actually believe. Obviously, there are people out there who wish to rid the world of its Jewish population, but I also believe in Judaism's moral teachings and social justice values and am willing to call out other Jews who don't subscribe to those values they supposedly uphold. Last time I checked, throwing stones at other Jews who are simply walking down the street and vandalizing property, whether it be mosques or bookstores or anything else, are not Jewish values. Perhaps if some of the supposed Israel experts weren't so staunchly right wing in their views and actually knew a thing or two about what it is like to live in Israel, I would come across as the moderate that I am on most of these issues. The reality is most Americans think I'm right of center when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, while most Israelis would say I'm to the left of center. What does that tell you?

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 17 15:09:19 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:51:46 2012.

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He's more credible than anyone here on the topic of Israel.

That's all.

You can disagree with him but he'll still be more credible on the particular topic of Israel.

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(900112)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 15:11:08 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 17 15:00:05 2012.

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I agree with most everything you say, especially that Israel was not born out of the Holocaust. It was more born, if anything, of the Pogroms of the latter 19th century that also drove many Jews to the U.S.

Didn't I say I didn't feel empowered to tell Jews anywhere where they should or shouldn't live? My argument is that if the Zionist dream were fulfilled, and all Jews made Aliyah, they would live forever under siege. Europe has proven that. The Arabs have proven that. The enemies of the Jews only need to get lucky once, and now they are getting nuclear weapons.

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(900113)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 15:12:54 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 17 15:09:19 2012.

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Is a Klansman more credible on race relations in the South than anyone in the North?

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(900114)

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 15:15:22 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 15:09:16 2012.

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I tell you what it doesn't tell me: It doesn't tell me why you attacked me for saying that Europe has no standing to dictate to Jews.

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Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . .

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jan 17 15:15:35 2012, in response to Re: EUEUEUEUEU threatening Israel over ''land grab'' of *Israeli land* . . ., posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 17 14:45:49 2012.

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But you seem unappreciative that the time you are enjoying in Israel, even the relative peace there since the building of the "Apartheid Wall," was won with the sweat and the blood of Zionists who were as unwelcome in Tel Aviv as the "Settlers" now are in Judea and Sumaria.

Find a post of mine where I have come out completely against the Security Fence. I am critical of some aspects of its construction (as is the Israeli Supreme Court for what it is worth), but I take no issue with the project on a large scale. I've also made it very clear I'm thankful for the opportunities that currently exist in Israel at this moment in time, because they certainly didn't exist in the United States when I made the decision to take my current job.


Well let me tell you something. Gaza is now Judenrein; see the peace it's bought the people in southern Israel? Are they not "Settlers" in your view? Ask any Arab. When the West Bank is Judenrein, your last "barrier beach" will be washed away and the enemies of Israel will start on the pre-1967 land.

Again, please find the posts where I maintain a view contrary to this.

you think the problem is that Jews aren't liberal enough

This isn't about liberalism, it is about upholding Jewish values and being a light onto the nations. Israel isn't succeeding in some regards, whether you like it or not.

So do I see settlement in Juda and Samaria as a good idea? No. But what I DON'T feel I have standing to do is it sit back and tells Jews anywhere: "You can't live where you want. Not because it's dangerous, but because other Jews find you inconvenient."

Fair enough, but that isn't what you were writing. And I've posted plenty of op-ed pieces, especially after the Gaza flotilla incident, to this board making the point that the Jewish people will not voluntarily commit suicide to please the international community.

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