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| Re: Those atheists are at it again (817469) | |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 12:47:08 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 07:24:18 2011. The church is a private site.Where is St. James' Church? |
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| (818233) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 12:48:10 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 12:15:29 2011. Every action by the Port Authority is done solely because it was empowered to do so by legislative action. Administrative laws are still laws. |
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| (818234) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 12:48:39 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by The Silence on Thu Jul 28 11:56:12 2011. You were the one who decided to make it personal. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jul 28 12:53:27 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 27 21:48:23 2011. I hope they win. That cross is DEEPLY OFFENSIVE.If they win, I'd like to see them try to remove the cross. Bill Newkirk |
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| (818242) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 12:57:18 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 11:45:02 2011. "Areligion" is NOT A RELIGION! It is no more a religion than health is a sickness.**I am not saying religion is a sickness. |
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| (818243) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:00:15 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 12:57:18 2011. But you said they aren't promoting their views. But they are, otherwise they wouldn't be bothering purchasing a billboard expressing their views. And no, a "religion" doesn't have to believe in a supreme being(s). Atheists, once they are organized and even to the point of purchasing ad space to promote their views, they have in fact become an organized group of like minded people promoting their views. |
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| (818244) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:00:34 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 11:56:22 2011. "No State shall make or enforce any law. . .nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" |
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| (818245) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:02:33 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 11:41:20 2011. The government has control over ENDORSING RELIGION by placing A CROSS at the site! It's one thing when people are offended by someone else's freedom to dress as they please or worship as they please. It's something else when the government endorses a specific religion. |
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| (818247) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jul 28 13:03:24 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 03:34:40 2011. People are hurt if it's placed in the memorial.Define hurt. Bill Newkirk |
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| (818248) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jul 28 13:05:12 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jul 28 02:06:56 2011. I had some pancakes and lo and behold, I looked down on it and there was the image of the Holy Virgin Mary staring at me!!Are you serious or sarcastic ? Bill Newkirk |
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| (818249) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:05:24 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:00:15 2011. I never said they aren't promoting their views. I clearly said THEY ARE PROMOTING THEIR VIEWS: "Atheism does present it's own beliefs"Religion does, by definition have to believe in a supreme being or force. There are religions without gods, but I have explicitly excluded them from consideration for these purposes (because we are talking about non-supernatural believing atheists). |
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| (818251) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:09:16 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:00:34 2011. None of that is happening. |
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| (818252) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:10:21 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 12:48:10 2011. There's no laws being made baring anyone from practicing a religion. It's the RELIGION'S tenets that appear to be the issue, not the government's. |
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| (818255) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:13:19 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:02:33 2011. The Government is not "endorsing" any religion. |
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| (818256) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:15:12 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jul 28 13:05:12 2011. If he's not being sarcastic, he's some sort of religious nut (which I don't believe he is). He's using the absurd to try and rationalize his view, which is a typical debating tactic for people trying to prove the unprovable. |
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| (818257) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:15:38 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Fred G on Thu Jul 28 09:06:11 2011. Why curry favor with Jews? Are you implying that 2% of the population has disproportionate power in America. That's a form of anti-semitism. Surprised you would say something like that. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:21:02 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:09:16 2011. Yes it is. One of those liberties is the free exercise of religion. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:21:43 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:10:21 2011. Yes, there is. PLACING THE CROSS THERE is interfering! |
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| (818262) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:22:57 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 13:13:19 2011. It is by placing a religious symbol in a public monument. |
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| (818264) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:28:26 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:22:57 2011. So what you're really saying is if you place one religions monument, you have to place all other groups monuments. That seems to be the trend in America anyway.Even the Catholic school in Rego Park, OLA on 63rd, had a big sign with a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist symbol, indicating that all religions are invited to attend their school. I guess people will pay to send their kids there so they don't have to go to public school.................. |
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| (818267) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:35:24 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:02:33 2011. People like you are why terrorists are done attacking New York. |
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| (818268) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by BMTLines on Thu Jul 28 13:35:59 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:22:57 2011. Is it a public monument though?The 9-11 memorial and museum is a private 501(c) organization, NOT a government agency or even a "public benefit corporation" like the MTA. True the land it resides on may be government owned, but for that matter so is the land and building of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. No-one disputes the right of the MMA to display religious artifacts and paintings. Why should the 9-11 memorial/museum be treated any differently? |
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| (818270) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:39:08 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:22:57 2011. The only time someone like you would not complain about a religious symbol in a public monument is if it was being mocked. Then it would be a "Freedom of speech" issue to you. |
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| (818278) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 14:00:01 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:21:02 2011. No one is telling you you can't freely exercise religion. The government is not in control of what some individual religion's tenents are. That is an issue within the religion itself, not the government. |
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| (818279) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 14:01:25 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:21:43 2011. No it isn't. The GOVERNMENT is not thwarting anything. The specific religion itself is the one that has the issue. The govt can't control (nor should it control) the specific tenents of a religion. |
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| (818299) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by The Silence on Thu Jul 28 14:31:12 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 13:21:43 2011. Here's the thing, somehting you have overlooked the entire time, the governmet is NOT placing anything anywhere. This is a priavtly operated museum we're talking about. They can display whatever they want, however they want. They are entitled to freedom of speach, just like you and I.Consitional rights can cancel out or ever overide each other, depending on who is seen to be harmed more. And I can tell you right now, that the courts would see no problem with the 9/11 museum housing the cross. |
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| (818300) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by The Silence on Thu Jul 28 14:32:08 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 12:48:39 2011. You've been acting like they're dumping the thing on your front lawn... |
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| (818302) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by The Silence on Thu Jul 28 14:36:56 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Jul 28 13:03:24 2011. New York basicly defines "hurt" in a legal context as having suffered physical, emotinal, and/or monitary damage. The only grounds anyone has of being hurt by the cross is if it tips over and lands on them. |
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| (818305) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 14:41:57 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:28:26 2011. That's because they want to establish that children of all faiths are welcome to learn there.But that's interesting. A Catholic school, fully within its rights to display only Catholic symbols and exclude others (and even further exclude non-Catholics were it so inclined) decides to be inclusive and display symbols that some Catholics would consider blasphemous, and yet here we have an agency of the government of the United States displaying prominently the symbol of a sole religion which is not its own established religion. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 14:51:19 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 14:41:57 2011. I can promise you that 99% of Christians don't consider other symbols to be blasphemous. I had a mezuzah on my apartment door frame for years. It was actually painted over but I still could have taken it down. It was a small mezuzah. Nowadays, everyone has a much bigger one. I just didn't care that it was there. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 14:57:52 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 14:41:57 2011. and yet here we have an agency of the government of the United States displaying prominently the symbol of a sole religion which is not its own established religionBut of course, that is NOT what they are doing. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 14:59:23 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 14:51:19 2011. A mezuzah is just a piece of metal if it has no meaning to you. I would feel the same way. Wouldn't care if it was there, wouldn't care if it wasn't. If it got in the way when I was painting or something, I would just take it away. If it wasnt in the way, it could stay.The cross is just two pieces of metal from a building that just stood there. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:00:11 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by BMTLines on Thu Jul 28 13:35:59 2011. The purpose of establishing a memorial organization is to streamline donations. The memorial is clearly being built as a public institution to memorialize a national event.The Met displays the religious artifacts as part of a collection of art and culture from the ages. They are chosen due to their artistic significance regardless of the subject matter portrayed therein. This cross is by its very nature not the work of a human being or any conscious being. It is being treated as significant because a random event is being ascribed religious significance. Look at it this way: Even if future generations don't understand the meaning of this work (an example actually from the Met and significant), they can still appreciate the work that went into it. If on the other hand a society without Christians discovered this cross in some rubble, it would be melted down for scrap as insignificant. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:01:48 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:39:08 2011. That's not in any way comparable. This is not an exercise by an individual, it's by the government and different rules apply. If the government decided to mock religion somehow, I WOULD be against that. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:02:45 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:35:24 2011. Um, good? |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:09:42 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 14:00:01 2011. The government is in control of what it puts into a public monument. Why must the public monument respect your religion and no one else's? |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:11:16 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by The Silence on Thu Jul 28 14:31:12 2011. The private organization is only a contrivance to attract private donations. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:13:42 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by The Silence on Thu Jul 28 14:32:08 2011. Public property belongs to everyone. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:15:34 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 14:59:23 2011. If that were true, then the cross would have been melted for scrap. |
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| (818332) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:16:10 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 14:57:52 2011. If all you're going to keep doing is saying no without explaining why, just stop. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by The Silence on Thu Jul 28 15:24:45 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:11:16 2011. alright then, if you're so smart, who do they respond to? What level of government or government agency, is this museum really a part of? |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 15:27:00 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:09:42 2011. So bring something from "your" religion. I could care less if they put a big Star of David in the middle if they want. Go for it. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 15:28:54 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:15:34 2011. Of course, as did any of the cars, the any of the fire engines, although the kept some. No problem keeping some of the beams.There's a beam at the Intrepid too. If they want, they can throw a beam on horizontally too, it would still be a beam. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 15:32:24 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 15:16:10 2011. I explained many times that they are making legislation that establishes an official religion. We may as well stop anyway, as none of your points are agreeable on this to me, and obviously mine are not to you so we are talking in circles here. |
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Typo Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 15:32:49 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 15:32:24 2011. I mean NOT making legislation. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jul 28 16:08:46 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 07:11:27 2011. Well that's easy, that's because he was talking to mostly black congregation saying what they wanted to hear.he says the same things to his own parishioners and they LOVE him and rallied around him after the brouhaha. When he was promoted to be a Catholic HS principal, they didn't want to lose him and protested to the Archdiocese. |
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| (818358) | |
Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jul 28 16:18:07 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 11:52:00 2011. If one's faith is so weak that they need the Government to confirm their beliefs, he/she may want to rethink the whole religion thing. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 28 16:19:05 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 28 13:35:24 2011. Has hate radio pushed you so far over the edge that like other republicans, you're crying in your quinoa because New York *ISN'T* laying in ruin? Wow ... :( |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 16:19:40 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 15:27:00 2011. I'm sure if I did do that, I would be charged with dumping, or vandalism. Yet when they do it it's a sacred artifact. |
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Re: Those atheists are at it again |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 28 16:20:36 2011, in response to Re: Those atheists are at it again, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 28 15:32:24 2011. NOT ALL LEGAL ACTS ARE LEGISLATION! |
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