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| Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. (752073) | |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 15:38:47 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Mar 15 15:00:00 2011. But that's Jewish-religion not Jewish-ethnic group. But still fair enough, Jews do tend to the liberal side of the scale, as this confirms, consistent with their high IQ. The way Kanazawa presents it in the study isn't exactly the way I'd like to see it analyzed, but simple regression of those of Jewish ethnicity alone (probably not asked in that sense in the survey -- probably most Jews ticked off "white" as their answer to race/ethnicity, making it harder to disentangle religion from ethnicity) would be informative to the religiosity aspect. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 15:43:05 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Mar 15 13:43:14 2011. Although I haven't read the other responses yet, and I'm pretty sure they provided a better rebuttal than I will, I have a feeling that common sense predates that guy. Do non-human animals recklessly kill each other for reasons other than defense or food? |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 15:45:25 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Mar 15 15:06:12 2011. It only samples the most liberal element of our population (young people in college).First of all these weren't college students, these were middle and high schoolers. Correct, this is not sensitive to generational effects because today's people are probably more liberal than people gone by. But the fact that the data comes from a single cohort is good because it prevents it from being contaminated by generational effects. But a longitudinal study would be useful to see if people become more conservative as they age, or if older people are more conservative because of a change in the times. If anything, the results on a more representative sample would be far less useful for propaganda, which is probably why this study never conduct such a proper survey. It indeed would be very useful to look at older people as well. I'm willing to bet that while the overall attitude would becomes more conservative as you look at older cohorts, within each cohort the relationship between IQ and liberalism will still hold. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 15:46:36 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 15:06:15 2011. No, proudly declaring your non-belief (not immunity to belief if faced with sufficient evidence) is the exactly opposite of religiosity. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 15:46:53 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Mar 15 15:10:36 2011. IT DOES NOT! Modern morality is based on universal concepts. It's no surprise that those same concepts shape Jewish belief. Every society proscribes murder and theft. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 15:48:27 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Fred G on Tue Mar 15 13:11:17 2011. Not really. Obviously something that's been proven to exist does exist. OTOH, something that's not been proven to exist could still exist. So should you believe something that's both not been proven and is at the same time completely implausible and ridiculous? |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Mar 15 15:51:57 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 15:38:47 2011. But that's Jewish-religion not Jewish-ethnic group.That's my point. The study is talking about religious Jews, be them Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Convert, or Karaite, and not atheist American Yiddishkeit Jews who are the stereotypical "liberals." But still fair enough, Jews do tend to the liberal side of the scale, as this confirms, consistent with their high IQ. The way Kanazawa presents it in the study isn't exactly the way I'd like to see it analyzed, but simple regression of those of Jewish ethnicity alone (probably not asked in that sense in the survey -- probably most Jews ticked off "white" as their answer to race/ethnicity, making it harder to disentangle religion from ethnicity) would be informative to the religiosity aspect. I agree, and I'm sure a study of Jews alone would show an inverse relationship between religiosity and liberalism. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Mar 15 15:54:02 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 15:48:27 2011. So should you believe something that's both not been proven and is at the same time completely implausible and ridiculous?Well since you put it that way, ok! your pal, Fred |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 16:00:21 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 15:43:05 2011. Yes. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 15 16:01:46 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Mar 15 14:53:41 2011. Yes, but that was after your first bit of backpedalling. You left out the Judeo portion originally, and claimed the concepts were purely Christian. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 16:08:07 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Mar 15 15:51:57 2011. Kanazawa's analysis is based on a mass lumping of all people and probably would generate slightly different results if the different racial groups were analyzed separately. For Jews, this is probably not possible from the Add Health data because there was probably no category under ethnicity for "Jew." But the religiosity and politics of Jews was not the main focus of Kanazawa's paper (it was LuchAAA that bough up Jews) but of Americans in general, and that shows a clear negative relationship between IQ and religiosity.Though I'm willing to bet that if you looked at ethnic Jews, of all types, separately from non-Jews, you would still find a strong negative correlation between religiosity and IQ, AND a positive correlation between IQ and liberalism. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 16:09:45 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 16:00:21 2011. An animal won't kill an organism that it doesn't view as a food source or threat to it. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 16:12:02 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 15 15:10:39 2011. Because people following a religion were responsible. Now of course that doesn't make religion inherently bad (just THEIR religion), but it does support the idea that without any religion at all, the World Trade Center would still be standing. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 15 16:12:27 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 13:38:38 2011. why? only one was involved. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 16:19:41 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 15:22:46 2011. But you won't exist. You won't have any thought to experience the nothingness. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 16:20:44 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 15:25:11 2011. I am against the death penalty as well but for different reasons. I don't have any moral qualms about executing brutal and unrepentant murderers. I just don't see it as necessary and given the risks inherent, not worth it. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 15 16:41:53 2011, in response to Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Mon Mar 14 20:29:25 2011. if you still think religion is a bad thing, look at Terrapin Station. He is one of many examples of how being part of an organized religion can benefit one in many ways, and he seems to have a very high IQ too. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 15 16:50:59 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 11:19:58 2011. hmmmm. Ron is a doctor. I think RIPTA is an engineer. How the hell did I insult you? I apologize if I did.I stand by my statement that the religious Jews are not nearly as likely to be Democrats as those who are ethnically Jewish. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 17:50:58 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 16:09:45 2011. Wrong. See here and here as well.Wanton killing is a staple in the animal kingdom. Humans may have made depravity more sophisticated, but we certainly didn't invent it. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 17:55:54 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 17:50:58 2011. I don't see how that article disproves what I said, those Chimps apparently killed other Chimps to defend their newfound territory. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 17:59:19 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 15 16:50:59 2011. I stand by my statement that the religious Jews are not nearly as likely to be Democrats as those who are ethnically Jewish.And you are probably correct. And that's the point. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 18:02:57 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 17:55:54 2011. Chimps will attack other chimps to capture territory (sound familiar?), as well many animals (including herbivores, like elephants) will engage in mass killing for sport. You'd be incredibly naive if you think that the animal kingdom is somehow less depraved. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 18:06:42 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 18:02:57 2011. Chimps will attack other chimps to capture territory (sound familiar?)One of the reasons to capture new territory is for access to more food, which was one of my reasons. as well many animals (including herbivores, like elephants) will engage in mass killing for sport. You'd be incredibly naive if you think that the animal kingdom is somehow less depraved. Are you sure that it's for sport? |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 18:34:14 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 18:06:42 2011. as well many animals (including herbivores, like elephants) will engage in mass killing for sport. You'd be incredibly naive if you think that the animal kingdom is somehow less depraved.Ok, I did some research, and found out that some animals to seemingly kill for sport, but it's to teach their young how to hunt, or part of their "anything that runs is prey" instincts. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 15 18:46:30 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 17:50:58 2011. Wanton killing is a staple in the animal kingdomCompletely false; no killing is wanton among animals. You're relying on observer bias as fact when it's not fact. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 15 18:48:09 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 18:02:57 2011. You made that up, didn't you. Animals have no concept of "sport" and do not kill as humans kill; they always kill whatever they perceive as a threat, if they are not carnivores or omnivores. Never at any time can you attribute mass slaughter to a flesh-and-blood being other than humans. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Mar 15 19:12:17 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 15 18:46:30 2011.  your pal, Fred |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Mar 15 19:54:53 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 15 18:46:30 2011. Get your sick Jesus superstition out of this SCIENTIFIC discussion.Jesus: the whole human race has suffered ever since the Romans nailed him to the cross. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Mar 15 22:19:52 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 15:43:05 2011. Common sense predates history. It's instinctive in all animals including humans.Those with common sense reproduced and propagated the human species. Those without it perished and their stupidity taken out of the genetic pool. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 22:49:11 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 18:06:42 2011. One of the reasons to capture new territory is for access to more food, which was one of my reasons.And females, of course, the main driver of male aggression. There usually is a reason for violence. Violence is a goal-oriented activity. But that doesn't make it any more moral. Let's look at the human equivalent: massacring a people and taking their women. Would you call that a moral activity? >>>>as well many animals (including herbivores, like elephants) will engage in mass killing for sport. You'd be incredibly naive if you think that the animal kingdom is somehow less depraved. Are you sure that it's for sport? Did you watch the videos? And elephants aren't exactly predators... Ok, I did some research, and found out that some animals to seemingly kill for sport, but it's to teach their young how to hunt, or part of their "anything that runs is prey" instincts. Some animals do this. Predators "train." Herbivores also kill other animals that are of no harm to them. And besides, you're arguing a silly point. There is no question that there are all sorts of awful activities animals inflict on each other, and no reason to expect that they wouldn't (kill or be killed). In your defense of animal behavior you are implementing what's known as the "naturalistic fallacy"; i.e., what is natural is good. This is clearly false, while many natural things are good, nature contains many harms as well. Also be projecting your "noble beast" onto animals, you are implementing the converse fallacy, the moralistic fallacy -- if a trait is good, it is found in nature. Not so, natural selection would not give two whits about morality, all it's concerned with is success by any means. In the natural world, nice guys really do finish last. Morality was something that was built by the ground up by social species, as it serves to increase the fitness of species that can live in groups, since it is then useful and even necessary if they are able not exploit and/or kill one another. Humans are the ultimate expression of this trend, and we continue to develop better ways of treating one another. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 22:52:28 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 15 18:48:09 2011. LOL do you think animals don't have a sense of enjoyment? Animals do what is pleasurable (as do humans). Sometimes that is killing/torturing. You are implementing the moralistic fallacy heavy by elevating the lower life forms on this planet to some supreme moral pedestal. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Mar 15 22:54:14 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Fred G on Tue Mar 15 15:26:33 2011. I think the term "Judeo-Christian" goes back about 4 American election cycles. "It's a Judeo-Christian" country" they say round election time. In the mean time, it's referred to as a Christian country. Anyway, I never heard the term "Judeo-Christian" while growing up and attending school. It's pretty recent.Correct. It's not used in Europe. It's only used in the context of American electoral politics. It's a White supremacist code word that is turned to "Judeo"-Christian in order to not scare the shit out of American Jews come election time. Let's just say that they are not talking about Arab or Filipino Christians or Ethiopian Jews when they use that term if you know what I mean. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Mar 15 22:57:17 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 22:49:11 2011. Great post. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Mar 15 23:09:46 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 15:45:25 2011. People don't become more conservative as they change.What happens is that the paradigm shifts. Something that was liberal when they were young (interracial marriages, women's rights) becomes normal as they age. They were for interracial marriage and women's rights when they were young and continue to be so (perhaps more so) as they age. However new issues arise (gay marriage). The now older crowd is not ready to embrace this like the younger crowd, hence making them more "conservative" in comparison. Some of them will eventually accept this new issue while some will not. What almost never happens is the older crowd rejecting the then-liberal issue of their youth which has by then become mainstream as they aged and their more "then-conservative" elders died off. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Easy on Tue Mar 15 23:17:55 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by SMAZ on Tue Mar 15 23:09:46 2011. Yeah, but many people do become more conservative as they age. I know because I know quite a few. Especially the ones that find religion. But even the ones that don't start to change when they buy their homes, have kids, etc. That's when previous philosophical issues become real for them. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 23:24:17 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by SMAZ on Tue Mar 15 23:09:46 2011. Good point. It would be interesting to test this. I've been told that people become more conservative as they grow old because their interests at this point are more in line with conservative views (protecting their perceived hard earned assets from redistribution). But you're very right, it could just be the paradigm of the day, as for the most part society does get more liberal with time. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 16 00:24:42 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 15 16:41:53 2011. It's an average. Doesn't mean that there aren't highly-intelligent religious people. But among religious people, Jews are the smartest. |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Wed Mar 16 00:26:13 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 16 00:24:42 2011. You Sir are high! |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 16 00:27:25 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by LuchAAA on Tue Mar 15 16:50:59 2011. You insulted me by placing me in the same list as that schmuck. Not RIPTA of course, he's cool. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 16 00:43:48 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Mr Mabstoa on Wed Mar 16 00:26:13 2011. You seem to have a problem with facts. |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Mar 16 00:46:51 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by JayMan on Tue Mar 15 13:05:15 2011. I think scientists, especially the good ones, would tell you that they know far from everythingIf that is true then how can they be so sure there is no God? |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 16 00:50:13 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 16 00:43:48 2011. lol |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 16 00:57:55 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by BMTLines on Wed Mar 16 00:46:51 2011. If that is true then how can they be so sure there is no God?Who says that they're SO sure? |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Wed Mar 16 01:11:45 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Wed Mar 16 00:50:13 2011. ?? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Mar 16 02:16:38 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Easy on Tue Mar 15 23:17:55 2011. Yeah, but many people do become more conservative as they age.No they don't. Somebody who thought that gays should be allowed to work without getting fired or being picked on, be allowed to serve in the military as long as he keeps it to himself or rent any house they want as long as they doesn't engage in sexual activity or "act gay" would have been considered liberal 25 years ago. Gay marriage was unthinkable. If that same person still holds those same positions today he'd be a conservative. Even a bigot. He didn't change. Society did. |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 16 05:31:40 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by SMAZ on Tue Mar 15 23:09:46 2011. Everybody's a conservative when looking at one's pay stub. Financial conservative, I mean. Social conservatives have a varying degree of stick up their butt :P And some people are just plain old buttinskis.your pal, Fred |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 16 05:56:06 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by BMTLines on Wed Mar 16 00:46:51 2011. I wouldn't say "so sure" but maybe "reasonably sure". Perhaps the scientific mind is never satisfied with intellectual benchmarks that are visited whereas a religious mind finds a comfort zone and stays there.your pal, Fred |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 16 06:57:56 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 16:12:02 2011. Yes, it just makes their religion look bad, but no, it doesn't support your theory. Wars have erupted over other things besides religion. |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 16 06:58:46 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Mar 15 15:27:10 2011. Um, that was only one religion that condoned it. That only makes that one religion bad. The others should not have been affected. So... |
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Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 16 06:59:25 2011, in response to Re: Liberals ARE smarter than conservatives., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 15 15:02:55 2011. IAWTP |
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