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| Re: The Star of David? (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach) (702033) | |
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Re: The Star of David? (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 1 14:51:47 2010, in response to The Star of David? (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 1 10:26:50 2010. Yes ... Jesus was an antisemite too just like everybody. :-\ |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 14:53:17 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 13:12:40 2010. I don't call myself an atheist because for whatever reason, despite my arguments against it, I feel the need to believe in a (non-intervening) God for certain purposes. I admit it's irrational and I consider myself an atheist in all but name.The only rational reason is that I don't want to completely abandon the religion of my ancestors. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 14:58:09 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Dec 1 13:45:05 2010. Um no. Given the age of the universe, it's more like playing 15,000,000 slot machines and hitting the jackpot only once.**Which are actually terrible odds. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:00:23 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 14:21:45 2010. And given the number of stars and the number of planets, really long odds favor a result. Our planet is not in a special location in the universe. Many planets in equally nondescript locations probably came close but didn't make it. We don't live there because no one does. There's nothing special about any of us (from a cosmic perspective). |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:01:23 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:00:23 2010. And if God did create life on Earth, why did he choose such an out of the way location? Maybe the explanation for why God doesn't speak to people anymore like in biblical times is that he forgot where he put us. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 15:03:15 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 14:38:35 2010. Unfortunately, it is generally understood that outside the world of strict mathematics (and by extension, abstract logic) it is impossible to prove a negative, or, conversely, to absolutely prove a positive.I think you are right, and I like the fact that your statement is neutral, applying equally to positives and negatives. as physicist Max Tegmark has pointed out the universe may itself be ultimately mathematical. I hadn't heard of Max Tegmark, but I will try to find out more about him and his ideas. Thanks for giving me some interesting things to consider. I thought I knew all the answers! |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 1 15:05:04 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:01:23 2010. I think he simply moved on to better people.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 15:05:48 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by f179dj on Wed Dec 1 14:42:39 2010. Read any Homer lately, as in the Iliad?Point taken! But then it was the gods that didn't get along, not the people. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:07:17 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 12:44:16 2010. Stop praying, it's all pointless!Exactly! Imagine the productivity that could be realized if people stopped praying and instead did something useful. If all the money spent on churches and expensive vestments for clergy (I'm look at you Catholics!) were spent on more useful things. There's nothing beyond the crappy, physical world In the history of Western Civilization, when people started to care more about the physical world than the nonexistent afterlife, the physical world started to get better. Would you rather live in the afterlife oriented Middle Ages or in the real world oriented present? so your suffering in your current life is meaningless Yes. Better to look for solutions to suffering and not just turn the other cheek and expect to inherit the Earth. I hope that when they invent teleportation, they teleport the richest man on Earth, and run the signal through the eye of a literal needle. That's more likely than anyone getting into heaven. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:11:50 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 12:44:59 2010. Your argument is blasphemous to followers of many religions. They do not believe as you do and believe that religion is the way God wants mankind to conduct themselves and to worship. Atheists have simply gone one step farther. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:12:30 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 14:42:26 2010. Correction: Christian God. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 15:13:00 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 12:44:59 2010. THAT I agree with! |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Dec 1 15:17:45 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Dec 1 14:05:03 2010. Jesus was Jewish, as well as many of those involved with him. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:19:07 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 13:50:45 2010. It still doesn't answer the why question. If it did, what is the answer?On the other hand, science answers the why: There are lots of causes and effects in science. Sure it doesn't answer why the universe exists in the first place, but neither does religion. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:20:45 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 12:46:29 2010. The absence of supernatural punishment for transgression does not remove a reason for being moral. Religious morality is infantile. It treats people like children who can only be convinced to do something or not do something due to fear of punishment. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:21:14 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 12:48:03 2010. Thank you for proving my point about religious infantilism. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:21:44 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 12:48:03 2010. Knowledge Brings Fear too, at least at Mars University. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 15:23:10 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 13:15:19 2010. If there was an all powerful creator, how was the creator created?That's an oxymoron. Closed minds discount the possibility of the existence of eternal beings, never mind the definition of "creator" in relation to creating everything. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 15:28:07 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 13:33:43 2010. You sure that's the end of the story?You sure Jesus really lived? Why isn't he mentioned in the epistles, which were written before the gospels? |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 15:28:33 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 1 04:40:52 2010. How about kids fearing their parents? That's the kind of fear that is normally ascribed to a god, not unnatural "he's out to get you" kind of fear. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 15:30:32 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 15:03:15 2010. Np. Here's some interesting reading on the matter:http://www.mukto-mona.com/science/physics/ParalellUniverse2003.pdf |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 15:36:48 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 15:28:07 2010. Timeline issues? What was more important at first, oral preaching or actually getting enough time to sit down and synopsize all the pertinent events? Letters get written faster than books, you know. And what authority actually knows exactly when things were written besides, relating to this set of books and letters?Jesus is mentioned all over the epistles. Unless of course you're referring to epistles that aren't in the bible. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 15:37:17 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Dec 1 15:17:45 2010. Correct. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 15:37:38 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 15:23:10 2010. >>>>If there was an all powerful creator, how was the creator created?That's an oxymoron. How so? Closed minds discount the possibility of the existence of eternal beings, No, I don't. But where's your proof? never mind the definition of "creator" in relation to creating everything. The problem is that an eternal creator in this context is superfluous. We are left with the choice of a finite universe created by a eternal creator or an eternal universe/multiverse. The simpler postulate is clearly the latter and by Occam's Razor, the one that we rationally select. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 15:42:11 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 14:38:35 2010. Einstein didn't believe in a literal God"I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."A non-literal being can't have thoughts. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 15:46:49 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:21:14 2010. He did no such thing. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 15:48:22 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 15:20:45 2010. Religious morality is infantile. It treats people like children who can only be convinced to do something or not do something due to fear of punishment.Doesn't law do the same thing? I obey many laws that I disagree with (ie. seatbelt law, fireworks laws, tax codes, etc) out of fear of governmental retribution (ie. fines or jail), rather than any respect for government or the rule of law. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 16:00:42 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 15:48:22 2010. >>>>>Religious morality is infantile. It treats people like children who can only be convinced to do something or not do something due to fear of punishment.Doesn't law do the same thing? To an extent, yes. The law serves to provide a codified moral framework that we can (usually) agree on and providing a means for their enforcement (punishment) to assure that they are adhered to. The vast majority of people obey most laws and generally live justly because it is their nature to do so. We all, however, to varying degrees, do obey the law out of fear of punishment. It is important to note you are using the appeal to adverse consequences fallacy -- you're basically saying that the existence/non-existence of God is determined by the consequences associated with the truth or falsehood of God's existence, which is fallacious. And beside, your argument is wrong to begin with. Europe is much less religious than America and they aren't running around raping and pillaging (anymore). As well, crime rates are much higher in Red States, and atheists are vastly underrepresented in prisons... |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Dec 1 16:05:59 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 16:00:42 2010. Did you start your Christmas shopping yet?We just had a long thread on crime rates. Such stats are measured by city, not state. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Dec 1 16:41:02 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 14:12:30 2010. Because THEY WERE JEWS.And apparently Caspar was Chassidic! |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 16:53:31 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 16:00:42 2010. Europe is much less religious than America and they aren't running around raping and pillaging (anymore).Does being less religious mean simply that they do not attend church as often or follow the teachings of the church to the letter or does it mean that they deny the very existence of God? I do not consider myself "religious" in that I rarely if ever go to church, I do have some doubts as to the accuracy of each story in the Bible yet at the same time I do not deny the very existence of God. It is on that point that I draw the line against atheists. |
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Re: The Star of David? (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 1 17:18:36 2010, in response to Re: The Star of David? (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 1 14:51:47 2010. That isn't what I meant. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 1 17:20:31 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Dec 1 14:05:03 2010. "In addition to the star, the middle wise man is obviously wearing a streimel."Don't know about that. It looks like a spuddik to me, not a full-fledged shtreimel. |
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Re: The Star of David? (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 1 17:26:37 2010, in response to Re: The Star of David? (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 1 17:18:36 2010. Not to worry, just playin' ... |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 17:32:04 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 16:53:31 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_belief_in_god.svgIn most European countries, over 20 or 30% of the population profess disbelief in any sort of God, spirit, or life force (reaching as high as 33% in France). Far higher numbers regard religion as unimportant in life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe). I assure you that the vast majority of them live decent, respectable lives. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Wed Dec 1 18:20:08 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Nov 30 23:59:08 2010. Why didn't they run ths in the US? |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 1 18:58:57 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Dec 1 09:09:02 2010. Even if it weren't a Saturday, most American Jews, Muslims, and Hindus aren't in their office on Christmas Day either. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 19:00:09 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 17:32:04 2010. Is that why Europe has become THE place to go for Sex tourism ?(not necessarily that there is anything wrong with it but it all depends on your definition of morality) If atheism means that scenes like this will proliferate in the US, I might just support it... |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Dec 1 19:59:56 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 1 18:58:57 2010. We're talking about atheists. There's no reason for an atheist to take the day off on Christmas. That point was made by the person who put this billboard up. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Dec 1 20:01:09 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Kriston Lewis on Wed Dec 1 18:20:08 2010. How can they run such an ad in the UK as JayZeeBMT claims? UK has hate speech laws that might prevent it from running. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 1 20:06:42 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Dec 1 19:59:56 2010. Paid day off = plenty good reason to take Christmas off.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 20:12:09 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 1 20:06:42 2010. We have a 4-day weekend. My company also gives Christmas Eve as a paid holiday :D |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 1 20:14:03 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 20:12:09 2010. That would give me extra time off to go and buy Solstice cards :Pyour pal, Fred |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 1 20:18:05 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 14:50:40 2010. That's fine. Believe what you want. Just don't impose it upon others.There is a majesty to the mysteries of the universe, 
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Burden of Proof (Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Dec 1 20:21:21 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 15:30:32 2010. On second thoughts, I am not sure if you are right that only in logic and mathematics can you prove anything (affirmative or negative).It seems to me that some things in science can be, and in fact have been, disproved. Didn't the Michelson Morley experiment disprove the existence of the luminiferous ether? And didn't Einstein prove that Newton was wrong to the extent that classical mechanics failed to predict accurately the orbit of Mercury? There are many examples in science where theories (hypotheses) have been falsified. According to Karl Popper, a scientific theory must have a means of being falsified; otherwise it doesn't qualify as scientific. I note in the paper by Max Tegmark that he uses this same criterion: "The lesson is that the multiverse theory can be tested and falsified even though we cannot see the other universes." |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Dec 1 20:22:28 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by R30A on Wed Dec 1 00:53:12 2010. Ugh,Atheism != Agnosticism! Theism: Belief in god/gods. Usually associated with a religion. Atheism: Belief that there is no god. Agnosticism: There is not enough information to decide either way. Only one of those doesn't involve believing in something that cannot be proven. In any case, theism is necessary. Our whole concept of marriage / family unit comes from it (otherwise men would simply fuck many women, and leave them to raise the children on their own, except for their 'favorite' - is that better than what we have now?). Our laws are based in it. Our species has survived because of it. I'm not saying that "mankind is inherently evil, and religion is necessary to control man". But a lot of people do need the punishment factor to mold their morals. Think about all those times you don't do something "because it's wrong", that very statement defies logic. Who decides what is right and wrong? Society? But if you do not get caught society will never learn what you did, and you will not be looked down upon. At that point the line between right and wrong is completely arbitrary and decided on a personal basis. If people are free to move the line wherever you want, in a few generations it will disappear entirely. Atheists are defying logic by doing "the right thing" in the absence of religious belief, unless they truly enjoy self-sacrifice. Agnostics have a reason to go along with the concept of right and wrong, because they have not decided either way, it is prudent to hedge one's bets. |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Dec 1 20:48:12 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 13:39:31 2010. LOL , I like that |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 20:49:17 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 1 19:00:09 2010. Quite possibly. Maybe after the devastation of WWII Europeans thought that there were more important things to worry about than if some people wanted to make money on people who wanted to get their rocks off....If atheism means that scenes like this will proliferate in the US, I might just support it... Hehe so Nevada doesn't count? |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by JayMan on Wed Dec 1 20:49:55 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 1 20:14:03 2010. There you go! |
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Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Dec 1 20:57:20 2010, in response to Re: Atheist Billboard At Lincoln Tunnel Approach, posted by streetcarman1 on Wed Dec 1 13:55:57 2010. The Christian holidays are SUPPOSED to be about religion, but it's really just commercialized here. |
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