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| Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash (591712) | |
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Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:06:50 2010 Sad news today from Russia, where the President of Poland, and most of the top echelon of the Polish government were killed in a plane crash. Their presidential aircraft, a Tupolev Tu-154, crashed upon landing at an airfield in western Russia. It appears that the plane rolled sharply to the left on approach, possibly because of a wing stall, and struck the trees short of the runway. All 96 people aboard the plane were killed on impact with the ground.Although the Tu-154 fleet has a spotty safety record, both Polish and Russian officials pointed out that the presidential aircraft underwent a major overhaul last December (a "C" check), and was in "good" condition. The investigation is ongoing. In addition to President Kazynskci, the Polish Army's chief of staff, the head of the Polish Nationmal Bank, the deputy Foreign Minister, and National Security Office chief were among the top Polish government officials aboard the ill-fated jet. The Polish government wanted to replace the aging Tu-154, but did not have the funds necessary to purchase new aircraft. A national state of mourning has been declared in Poland. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 09:10:05 2010, in response to Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:06:50 2010. This though appears to be no accident at all. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:12:43 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 09:10:05 2010. It does look bad, that this plane just happened to stall and crash with most of the Polish government aboard. Safety record notwithstanding, I don't believe in coincidences, either. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 09:14:51 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:12:43 2010. To me, it appears to be sabotage; whoever worked on this plane was not vetted well enough. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:27:55 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 09:14:51 2010. It's entirely possible that one of the ground crew sabotaged thev plane. But there was heavy fog over the field at the time this plane made its approach, and eyewitness accounts suggest a left wing stall. Whether that stall was planned or accidental remains to be seen. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 13:09:58 2010, in response to Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:06:50 2010. Cue Luchie's "dangers of flying" lecture. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 10 13:26:13 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 13:09:58 2010. Tu-154. NATO Reporting Name: Careless. I expect LuchAAA will be accurate in his assessment regarding the inherent danger of flying in general and this tragedy in particular. He usually provides keen insight into all things aviation. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by trains61 on Sat Apr 10 13:43:45 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 10 13:26:13 2010. Hey bud. How have you been? If rumors and talks continue, we might be working for the same company. Well off to the Hangar for me. Take care. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 10 14:08:36 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by trains61 on Sat Apr 10 13:43:45 2010. I'm alright and hope all is well with you. Nothing surprises me anymore. Absolutely nothing. We finally picked up firm orders for fifty A350s and fifty 787s with options. Furthermore, the company is in the early stages of deciding whether or not to order 90 - 130 seat jets to be operated by mainline pilots. Merging seniority lists? East vs. West will be nothing more than a little spat compared to this. Anyway, the company may begin recalling us as early as May of next year but I'm not holding my breath and besides, the company needs to change significantly for the better for me to return. For the record, I hope it does and I do. As for my feelings re. management, those will remain, well, you know... Have a pleasant weekend, trains61, and be safe out there. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 10 14:10:15 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 10 13:26:13 2010. WB and thanks for the report on Tupolev, the builder of the notorious Tu-144 "Konkordsky" . . . |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 10 14:11:27 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 09:10:05 2010. One of your rare flashes of insight. |
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Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 14:51:03 2010, in response to Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:06:50 2010. OK, I don't deny that the Russian government might be happy to see Kaczynski dead.But someone needs to explain how you make a plane land short of a runway and clip the treetops as a result. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 10 14:57:28 2010, in response to Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 14:51:03 2010. "Make a plane land short of a runway" . . . ? You saying that the pilots were committing suicide/homicide? Interesting conspiracy theory indeed; what's the basis? |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 15:07:56 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 10 14:57:28 2010. No. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Apr 10 15:14:54 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 10 13:26:13 2010. Happy to see you back again. How have you been? |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Apr 10 15:50:01 2010, in response to Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:06:50 2010. just days after obama came down the mountain and signed the surrender declaration. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 16:14:37 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Apr 10 15:50:01 2010. These matters though may well be coincidence; the Tupolev jet was extremely old and now it appears as though there were unforgiving weather conditions combined with an overloaded plane. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 16:15:56 2010, in response to Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 14:51:03 2010. It's looking like major pilot error in failing to heed the fog warnings and doing what the tower said, "go away." In the end, pilot decides even if everyone's telling them not to do it. That all said though, the radio altimeter for ILS landings *can* be adjusted to make 0 feet of altitude at any level you want. You can dial in ground so that it meets you for real 1000 feet above which can be not so nice.So there *are* possibilities. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 16:24:27 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 16:15:56 2010. An earlier Russian jet flying there was told to divert to Minsk and did; this one didn't and this is the result. That those who were on board were on board is looking more and more coincidental...it didn't look like such before. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 16:57:16 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Apr 10 16:24:27 2010. Heard about it last night from one of my guys in Latvia about an hour or two before it hit the wires over here. So I got to hear all the reasons for this to have been a "hit job" from "we told you not to come here" (the actual memorial was the 7th) to all of the "retaliation for Bush's missiles" to how much Putin *hates* the Kaczynski brothers to the NATO angle ... no matter *what* happened for real, as I said in the OP, this was a really really bad time for this to have happened ...I don't think Poland will accept any other outcome other than Putin did it. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Apr 10 17:17:49 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 13:09:58 2010. "Luchie"?That's streetcarspeak. I feel bad about this. Feel bad about all plane crashes. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 17:42:51 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 10 14:10:15 2010.  |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 10 17:46:32 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 17:42:51 2010. I actually liked their old competition (Douglas, Lockheed, Convair) . . . |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 18:17:17 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 10 17:46:32 2010. McDonnell Douglas got merged into Boeing, though, and Lockheed dropped its passenger program after the L1011. I'd prefer to fly something American built over anything else, which is why I try to stick with airlines that have Boeing fleets. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 18:28:19 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 16:15:56 2010. So there *are* possibilities.Yes, but my understanding is that this was a Polish government plane on a flight originating in Poland. And wouldn't the pilot have noticed that the altitude at take-off was 1000 feet higher than it ought to be? I'm not saying a Russian conspiracy is impossible. Just that so far there is not one iota of evidence for it. But that isn't deterring some people here from assuming the Russians did it. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Apr 10 18:44:02 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 10 14:08:36 2010. East vs West, Meh. Just wait if either one of the rumor mergers comes true (Continental, US Airways). (IMO, a UA/CO hookup would be better, UA (and any other self-respecting airline) should stay far away from US. Let them go tits-up and pick up the pieces)B7 |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 18:46:06 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 18:28:19 2010. Not to worry, I'm not saying it's a conspiracy either beyond what I've heard out of the area. But one of the things that have been said is that in an ILS landing, the actual altitude of the ground itself is supposedly relayed by ground control as opposed to what the altimeter says. Supposedly the altimeters in those planes aren't that accurate. Witnesses at the site were saying that the plane was significantly lower than it should have been which of course has the wags wagging. Supposedly the plane also went around twice before it crashed.Add all the bad blood between Kaczinski and Putin, it's definitely got them wagging. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 19:05:00 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Apr 10 18:44:02 2010. I was hearing Continental/United and American/US Airways |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 20:56:46 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 18:46:06 2010. A commercial pilot friend of mine says they went around in 100 feet [alititude over the runway], tried to shoot the missed approach, and stalled. At least that's the scuttlebutt among the ALPA folks.I think they got into trouble in a very high-time airplane (this Tu-154 was supposed to have over 20,000 cycles on it), and the ship bit hard. But to have so many government bigs killed at once...it raises eyebrows, at the very least. Imagine if President Obama, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the National Security Advisor, and various other Cabinet-level officials had gone down aboard Air Force One in some foreign country with whom our relations were shaky... |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 10 21:46:29 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 16:15:56 2010. So far, what we are being told about the circumstances before the crash are coming from the Russians. Don't accept them at face value. Wait until they are backed up with physical evidence.I am not into conspiracy theories, and I lean towards the belief that this was an accident. I just don't trust the Russians, especially Putin. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Sat Apr 10 21:51:43 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 16:15:56 2010. No Conspiracy theories here, but it does smack of a lot of Polish Jokes next week! |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Apr 10 21:55:01 2010, in response to Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 14:51:03 2010. Watch "Die hard II". Recalibrate Sealevel to -200 feet. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 21:58:09 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 20:56:46 2010. I should hear from my guys over there in a few hours - they were really wagging last night about it. I can read and write Polish somewhat owing to years of working with their malware and the idjits who wrote it, but I can't make out spoke Polish from their radio and the English versions didn't have much in the way of information. So I'll probably get the lowdown later. Everyone was in a state of shock last night though and pissed at the Russians.Only inconsistent thing though was that they were headed towards the runway when they clipped the trees, so whatever happened wasn't on the abort. And yeah, truly sucks that everyone was on the one plane - even worse that they didn't heed the warnings and divert to Belarus and just take the bus. :( |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 22:08:49 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 10 21:46:29 2010. That's pretty much where it was going in Poland last night. And the pieces and the investigation are already on their way back to Mockba. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Apr 10 22:13:18 2010, in response to Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Apr 10 09:06:50 2010. Shouldn't there be a rule/law that forbids that many top officials of the same country from flying in the same plane? I mean like here the VP and Pres would not generally travel together.I too wonder about any possible conspiracy theories. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Sat Apr 10 22:46:51 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by 9 local on Sat Apr 10 19:05:00 2010. That's what I predict the final result will be. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Sat Apr 10 22:48:32 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 10 14:08:36 2010. Is UAL thinking of ordering the Bombardier CSeries jets? They seem to be an interesting concept and I'd love to see them fly for a US carrier. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 11 00:22:43 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Apr 10 15:07:56 2010. There's no basis? Didn't think so. So I don't know where you got the notion that the actual trajectory was planned . . . |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Apr 11 00:28:07 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 11 00:22:43 2010. Reread what he wrote. He's saying that conspiracy theorists would have to explain how someone not inside the plane could cause it to land short of the runway. He's saying that it's most likely not a conspiracy. |
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Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Apr 11 02:37:21 2010, in response to Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by Easy on Sun Apr 11 00:28:07 2010. Conspiracy theorists will have a long list of ways to make the plane crash short of the runway. They will say a hacker helped bring the plane down. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Apr 12 22:06:01 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 10 18:46:06 2010. But one of the things that have been said is that in an ILS landing, the actual altitude of the ground itself is supposedly relayed by ground control as opposed to what the altimeter says. Supposedly the altimeters in those planes aren't that accurate.In this case, the airport wasn't ILS-equipped. This was apparently one of the reasons why control was adamantly opposed to the Poles landing at the airport instead of diverting elsewhere. It was also reported that the late Polish President himself publicly dressed down pilots who in 2008 refused to land the presidential plane in Georgia when that nation was at war with Russia and diverted to Azerbaijan. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Apr 12 22:11:41 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Apr 12 22:06:01 2010. Yep ... Lech Walesa said so as well. :(What I heard from over there was that it crashed on the fourth attempt, and that the pilot said in his last communication that he had been told to "go in." |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Apr 12 22:21:06 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Apr 12 22:11:41 2010. What I heard from over there was that it crashed on the fourth attempt, and that the pilot said in his last communication that he had been told to "go in."If true - and it sure does seem true based on the late President's actions in 2008 - then Lech Kaczynski will likely go from a tragic figure whose life was cut short by an accident to someone who basically signed the death warrants for 98 people. |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Apr 12 22:23:51 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Apr 12 22:21:06 2010. Supposedly the answers are all there on the tapes. :( |
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Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Apr 13 00:15:14 2010, in response to Re: Conspiracy theories Re: Polish President, Top Officials Killed In Air Crash, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Apr 12 22:21:06 2010. Even that aside, this is looking more and more like a tragicomedy (not to belittle the deaths, but I can't think of a better word). Another jet ahead had obeyed the orders to land short, which means that air traffic control can't be to blame. |
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