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| California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt (187953) | |
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| (187953) | |
California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 20:49:25 2007 AP article via Kansas City Star. The chemical is also called tetrachloroethylene.Land o'fruits 'n' nuts indeed. They do this even in the face of proven facts about its relatively low toxicity. (FYI, capsaicin, the chemical that makes hot peppers hot, has similar effects.) So now dry-cleaning establishments have to suffer in order to satisfy some phony environmentalist politician's whim? |
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| (187959) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by JohnL on Thu Jan 25 21:09:42 2007, in response to California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 20:49:25 2007. Gasoline contains some carcinogens. Should California ban that too? |
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| (187960) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by BIE on Thu Jan 25 21:11:47 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by JohnL on Thu Jan 25 21:09:42 2007. Gasoline should be illegal everywhere. |
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| (187961) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jan 25 21:13:04 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by JohnL on Thu Jan 25 21:09:42 2007. No but our gas pump nozzles have vapor recovery systems to reduce emissions and warning signs are posted next to the pumps thet gasoline contains carcinogens known to the state of california to cause cancer. |
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| (187962) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jan 25 21:15:16 2007, in response to California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 20:49:25 2007. It won't necessarily hurt businesses because all of them will have to follow the same rules. |
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| (187965) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 21:26:07 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Easy on Thu Jan 25 21:15:16 2007. Of course it will hurt businesses. Most of them don't have the cash to change over. |
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| (187970) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by BMTLines on Thu Jan 25 21:34:51 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Easy on Thu Jan 25 21:15:16 2007. It won't necessarily hurt businesses because all of them will have to follow the same rules.It may not hurt the industry as a whole but it will hurt individual businesses who do not have the 40 - 175 k to replace their machines. For example, a small business that barely meets operating expenses but has no money saved for equipment replacement. So yes such owners will be not only be deprived of their livelihood but their business will be rendered worthless since they will not be able to sell it depriving them of their ability to retire. |
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| (187971) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Jan 25 21:35:45 2007, in response to California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 20:49:25 2007. why not ? they make us burn a special gasoline the most costly !!our petro is the most expensive in the nation !! |
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| (187973) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by BMTLines on Thu Jan 25 21:38:23 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by JohnL on Thu Jan 25 21:09:42 2007. California needs to ban ITSELF!!!! |
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| (187974) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Jan 25 21:39:03 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by JohnL on Thu Jan 25 21:09:42 2007. we are forced to buy ''special california petro'' the most high ^^^^$$$$$$ in costs to make !! the rest of the 49 states use REGULAL gasoline! |
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| (187975) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Jan 25 21:39:54 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by BMTLines on Thu Jan 25 21:38:23 2007. now we got aaaarrrrnnnnolllddd !!ugh !! #$$%^&&*&^*&^*%#~!#^!!!!!!!! |
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| (187984) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jan 25 21:57:53 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 21:26:07 2007. The dry cleaners have known that this was coming for a long time. I don't feel too sorry for them. Anyway the way that dry cleaners often work is to send the clothes off-site for cleaning at one of the larger facilities. The people that don't buy the new machines can always choose that as an option.They also get a $10,000 grant from the state if they choose the preferred technology. That should be good enough for a downpayment for most successful businesses. Here's a link to the actual regulation. link |
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| (187985) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 22:00:50 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Easy on Thu Jan 25 21:57:53 2007. The dry cleaners have known that this was coming for a long timeI don't think so. Otherwise they wouldn't have been caught out there. |
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| (187988) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jan 25 22:11:52 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 22:00:50 2007. Yes they have. Look at the dry cleaner page on the california air resources board website. They've been having seminars, workshops, etc. California doesn't pass environmental laws out of the blue. They always invite business to get involved even though they don't always use their input completely. They've been telling these people to get new machines for years. |
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| (188000) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Thu Jan 25 23:33:50 2007, in response to California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 20:49:25 2007. *They do this even in the face of proven facts about its relatively low toxicity.*Downtown Orlando is a superfund site...along with many other places partly due to this chemical. You don't want to drink water that's been contaiminated either...unless you want to be a mutated freak. |
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| (188001) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 23:46:50 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by orange blossom special on Thu Jan 25 23:33:50 2007. Were there a lot of dry cleaners in downtown Orlando? Or was there another cause . . . ? |
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| (188007) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Thu Jan 25 23:58:02 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 23:46:50 2007. Yea, part of it was the chemicals just get spilled into the back and parking lot. Then there was Lockheed who and a couple other companies who did the same thing. It must've been like China in the '60's. Every company just dumps all their waste into the storm trenches and air.TCE you say? I could've sworn there was mention of dry cleaning, must've been another story. ---- Federal records show the pollution dates back nearly 40 years to when Spellman Engineering, a business that cleaned electronics parts for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, dumped barrels of a potent degreasing solvent on its lot on Brookhaven Drive. Ultimately, at least 550 gallons of TCE soaked into the ground, penetrating as deeply as 40 feet and spreading outward for nearly 40 acres. Experts think the pollution continues to expand an acre a year. It wasn't until the early 1990s that environmental authorities discovered the plume of poison amid work to clean up the city property after removal of OUC equipment. By then, Spellman Engineering no longer existed, leaving authorities with nobody to blame or bill for an environmental disaster second only in Orlando to a mile-long underground plume of coal tar left by another long-defunct plant that converted coal to gas for stoves and lighting. A cleanup has been under way for nearly a decade at another, smaller TCE contamination near Orange Avenue and Colonial Drive. Orlando Sentinel Communications is paying 60 percent of costs, while the state Department of Environmental Protection and Orlando are paying 20 percent each. A suspected cancer-causing agent, TCE doesn't dissolve easily in water and sinks relentlessly through the ground. ---- Bizjournals The Environmental Protection Agency has determined that even five parts of TCE per billion gallons of water poses an unacceptable health risk -- an amount roughly equivalent to five drops of water in an Olympic-sized swimming pool. The only major increase was in the level of perchloroethylene, used for dry cleaning and as a degreaser, in a well adjacent the former Orlando Steam Laundry. At that particular well, the PCE level rose from 5,300 parts per billion in August 2003 to 6,600 parts per billion in March 2004. The Environmental Protection Agency has determined the maximum contaminant level for PCE as five parts per billion. Access to that well was restricted in August 2004, when contamination levels were recorded for the most recent report. After a decade-long dispute, the Orlando Sentinel was found to have dumped trichloroethene, also known as TCE -- a once widely used industrial cleaning solvent -- down storm and sewer drains and on land just north of the newspaper's downtown Orlando loading dock. ------ F#$@ing liberal media. Even with it's redneck columnists, comics, and not endorsing Kerry. |
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| (188041) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by BIE on Fri Jan 26 07:39:00 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 22:00:50 2007. "Perc" is a DAMNED DANGEROUS chemical. One of thne few common chemicals more dangerous than gasoline. It can cause Liver, Kidney, and brain damage. |
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| (188066) | |
Re: Olog in Wonderland, wasCalifornia bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 26 10:46:35 2007, in response to California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 25 20:49:25 2007. You are only looking at the short-term effects on inhalation. You did not consider the long term effects, especially for workers, on the liver.What do you do for a living? Have you ever worked on or around chemicals? |
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| (188067) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Jan 26 11:02:16 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Jan 25 21:39:03 2007. Do they still have "winter gas" out there? I remember they would add some additive during the winter months (forgot why), that would raise the price 5-10 cents a gallon. |
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| (188068) | |
Re: Olog in Wonderland, wasCalifornia bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jan 26 11:19:49 2007, in response to Re: Olog in Wonderland, wasCalifornia bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 26 10:46:35 2007. I think all places of business has the OSHA Blue book in a "conspicious" place. |
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| (188235) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 27 03:31:14 2007, in response to Re: Olog in Wonderland, wasCalifornia bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 26 10:46:35 2007. You are only looking at the short-term effects on inhalation. You did not consider the long term effects, especially for workers, on the liverThat is not a sufficient reason to ban all perchloroethylene use—if such concerns are so strong (they are not), then use of PPE can be mandated by the state. The way California has acted here, you'd think they had discovered that perchloroethylene was highly poisonous. Note how California, by comparison has not banned all gasoline usage nor tried to impose prohibition on alcohol and tobacco (imagine that), or for that matter forced a switchover to water-based paint and water-based nail polish, or banned hot sauce . . . (imagine that as well). I can think of several other absurdities to fit a comparison with what California just did in relation to "perc". What do you do for a living? Have you ever worked on or around chemicals? Yes; I have worked in and around organic solvents (both aliphatic and aromatic, halogenated and non) for several years. Same goes for the various resins that get dissolved in them. I'm well up on drum grounding, proper ventilation, proper PPE utilization, the whole nine yards. Worrying about perchloroethylene is like worrying about denatured alcohol. |
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| (188388) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 27 20:58:47 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by orange blossom special on Thu Jan 25 23:58:02 2007. Ultimately, at least 550 gallons of TCE soaked into the ground, penetrating as deeply as 40 feet and spreading outward for nearly 40 acres. Experts think the pollution continues to expand an acre a year . . . (TCE) sinks relentlessly through the groundEh? Where do they get this noise from, "penetrating"? 550 gallons is ten drums. Perchloroethylene evaporates and is not miscible with water (it's a non-polar compound and would emulsify, rather than dissolve, with water in small amounts). The Environmental Protection Agency has determined that even five parts of TCE per billion gallons of water poses an unacceptable health risk -- an amount roughly equivalent to five drops of water in an Olympic-sized swimming pool Have they? I don't see that on the EPA's own fact page; ain't that funny. The only reference to "five PPBG of water" of contaminants has to do with the standards of the Arizona Department of Health Services, regarding well water (and all well water ought to be tested before being consumed as drinking water, no matter where you're living) . . . |
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| (188390) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 27 21:00:49 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 27 20:58:47 2007. Not to mention, which dry cleaners would dump perchloroethylene in the ground and cover it over? That's the one way that the compound would reach groundwater. |
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| (188465) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 28 01:30:27 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by BIE on Fri Jan 26 07:39:00 2007. I worked with perc for a long time. About the most dangerous thing about it is the weight of the drum, which is about 750 lbs—trying to move that thing up and down ramps could give you a hernia. There are titanium dioxide suspensions that are lighter than that stuff. Cigarettes are more dangerous. |
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| (188523) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sun Jan 28 12:55:23 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 27 21:00:49 2007. You can pee in the grass and it'll make it the groundwater.Oil doesn't "mix" either, but you still can't dump it can you? |
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| (188569) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 28 15:04:11 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by orange blossom special on Sun Jan 28 12:55:23 2007. You can pee in the grass and it'll make it the groundwaterNope. The grass will absorb it first. And besides, do dry cleaners dump perc "in the grass"? Oil doesn't "mix" either, but you still can't dump it can you? You're comparing long-chain aliphatic compounds to chlorinated carbon compounds (can't say "hydrocarbons" because there are no hydrogens in perc). You spill perc on the ground, it evaporates. You need to pour perc into a hole and cover the hole for it to reach the groundwater. |
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| (188710) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun Jan 28 23:15:05 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 28 15:04:11 2007. Not all groundwater is created equal.The makeup of the ground in Arizona is different than Florida and New Jersey. I'm sitting on sinkholes thanks to that groundwater! Actually, thanks to development, not much makes it to the groundwater, all the concrete and stormwater drains divert most of the moisture before the ground gets to soak it in. Anyway, where you have business you're going to have someone skirt around the rules. Telling me that ALL dry cleaners, or whoever dispose of thier waste throughout history propery is like saying that all people don't throw their batteries in the trash and dispose of them properly. Cuz you know you're not supposed to throw those out right? And technically, things were done to become illegal. Someone dumped the waste and it was found bad to become illegal. So yea, they would've had to dump it at somepoint. |
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| (188716) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sun Jan 28 23:26:41 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun Jan 28 23:15:05 2007. Cuz you know you're not supposed to throw those out right?I thought that only applies to car batteries. |
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| (188730) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 29 00:26:11 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun Jan 28 23:15:05 2007. Telling me that ALL dry cleaners, or whoever dispose of thier waste throughout history propery is like saying that all people don't throw their batteries in the trash and dispose of them properlyDry cleaners are not chemical manufacturers. You're not going to get ten drums of perc in the ground from a dry cleaner. You know why you can smell the perc, right? because it's evaporating. None of this is reason enough for CA to ban the stuff outright—because then you may as well ban solvent-based paint, too. |
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| (188734) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jan 29 00:41:01 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 29 00:26:11 2007. We're working on banning solvent based paint for most industries. Check back with us in 5 years. |
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| (188738) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 29 01:56:14 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Easy on Mon Jan 29 00:41:01 2007. There aren't too many effective water-based paints out there.This ban of perc will hurt the economy, not help. I don't see anyone trying to electrify Metrolink, either. |
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| (188745) | |
Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Jan 29 06:10:52 2007, in response to Re: California bans *perchloroethylene*—dry-cleaning businesses severely hurt, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 29 01:56:14 2007. Powder coating for metal (FAR, FAR Superior to ANY liquid paint) |
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