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| I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy (1647253) | |
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| (1647253) | |
I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 10 22:53:35 2019 All the damn time now. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Aug 10 23:20:57 2019, in response to I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 10 22:53:35 2019. Why |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Sat Aug 10 23:36:08 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Aug 10 23:20:57 2019. iawtp |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 06:55:53 2019, in response to I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 10 22:53:35 2019. They wanted to blame white supremacy but Dayton took the wind out of their sails on that.The kneejerk reaction thus had to pivot to gun control. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:12:37 2019, in response to I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 10 22:53:35 2019. Deservedly so.No one can rebut this: Canada has the same non-gun murder rate as the US and 7 times the gun-based murder rate. There is no reason to think any of the following restrictions are against the Second Amendment: - Rigorous background checks, with no exceptions like giving a gun to your nephew, and all the more so for volume and repeat purchases - if you want to buy 10 guns and aren't a dealer, you should be able to demonstrate that you still have them all - Rigorous training (many deaths are caused by careless use and storage of guns) - No magazine bigger than x bullets (my opinion is that x should equal 10, though NY's x = 7 doesn't sound unconstitutional to me) - "May issue" for concealed weapons |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 07:20:45 2019, in response to I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 10 22:53:35 2019. So am I.When there was a mass shooting in Australia 23 years ago that killed 35 people, the government there said, "Fuck this shit. We're not going through this again." They enacted a comprehensive band on rapid-fire weapons almost immediately. They even bought back as many assault rifles from gun owners as they could find, at attractive prices. It worked. Since the 1996 ban on such weapons, there has been just one--that's right, one--mass shooting (in which five or more victims are killed) in Australia. No more "advocacy". It's time to do. I do believe assault rifles could be removed from our society without lacerating the Second Amendment. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 07:25:08 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:12:37 2019. -A gun registry (which would be required for "demonstrating you still have them all") is step 1 towards national confiscation. Problematic.-I like the training requirement. Having something like a "gun license" with training requirements isn't the same thing as a registry. There's plenty of people with drivers licenses who do not have cars. -I like the 10 round limit. NY's 7 round limit was struck down as either unconstitutional or unenforceable (no one makes them that size). -Hard NO on "may issue". The original purpose of "may issue" over "shall issue" was to keep guns out of the hands of minorities. It is blatantly unconstitutional to use anything other than objective criteria, which is why DC declined to challenge their gun laws being struck down (they knew it would lose if it went to the Supreme Court, invalidating all such laws in the country). Other things they could do (and have done) are restrict certain ammunition. El Paso guy spent half a page critiquing ammo choice for maximum damage. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 07:28:55 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 07:20:45 2019. Assault rifles (defined as rifles with fully automatic or select-fire capability) have been restricted since 1986. No mass shootings in recent history have used them.If you are talking of semi-automatic rifles that look scary, they can make them look less scary while still being the exact same gun. If you are talking of all semi-automatic weapons, the only guns left will be revolvers and shotguns. |
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| (1647274) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 07:34:12 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 07:28:55 2019. Semi-automatic rifles can be easily converted using readily available retrofit hardware, as was done in the Las Vegas and Dayton shootings.What legitimate reason, other than historical preservation in a secure collection, is there for ordinary people to own even semiauto rifles like AR-15s? |
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| (1647275) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:37:52 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 07:25:08 2019. OK, maybe a gun registry isn't the answer, but reselling of guns should subject you to even more rigorous checks to make sure you are reselling them to eligible customers. There is no reason gun dealers should be subject to audits, etc., and that being an unregistered gun dealer shouldn't be a serious crime.NY's law now seems to be that you can have a 10-round magazine but can't legally load more than 7 bullets into it, though the State Police are directed not to arrest you if you have 10. Heller was about guns in the home, not on the street. The Supreme Court has never, ever upheld the constitutional right of law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed weapon in a public area. I agree the "may issue" needs to have objective criteria, so yes, it could be a "shall issue" with restrictions on the criteria under which it might be issued. Definitely, hollow point bullets and the like are not protected arms. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:40:09 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 07:34:12 2019. I can see up to 10 bullets as legitimate for self-defense in the home, or to make sure that the deer you shoot doesn't get away wounded but not dead. And that's a sufficiently small number to discourage mall/school shooters. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 07:47:37 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:37:52 2019. The Supreme Court has never, ever upheld the constitutional right of law-abiding citizens to carry a concealed weapon in a public area.Agreed. I should clarify though: it should be either open carry or concealed carry with shall issue. If you do "may issue" and prohibit open carry, you have effectively denied the 2nd amendment to people on an arbitrary basis. I am somewhat against open carry. Someone a few days ago did a "2nd amendment audit" where they walked through a Walmart with a rifle, body armor and a hundred rounds of ammunition (the "good guy with a gun" story where he was stopped at gunpoint). The guy actually broke no laws. There might be a problem if the first moment that a fully equipped mass shooter has broken a law is the moment he starts firing at people. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Chicagomotorman on Sun Aug 11 07:53:26 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 07:20:45 2019. Move to New Zealand. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 07:53:52 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 07:47:37 2019. The problem is you can’t have 100% shall issue because if a person fails a criteria you need to be able to deny. I don’t have a problem if it was shall issue if certain conditions are met provided the conditions themselves are objective so that anyone reviewing the determination can easily discern whether conditions were met. |
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| (1647283) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:00:44 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 07:53:52 2019. I don’t have a problem if it was shall issue if certain conditions are met provided the conditions themselves are objective so that anyone reviewing the determination can easily discern whether conditions were met.Exactly. Though there are still gray areas. What if someone had a protection order issued against them, which was then rescinded? On the one hand, such a person is more likely than average to use a gun improperly, but on the other hand is that a good reason to ban them from carrying a gun for the rest of their lives? |
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| (1647284) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:02:26 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Chicagomotorman on Sun Aug 11 07:53:26 2019. Why?He has as much right to advocate for modifications to, or reinterpretations of, the Second Amendment as you have with respect to the 14th. |
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| (1647285) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 08:11:20 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:02:26 2019. Last I checked, Chicagomotorman was in favor of former slaves being given equal citizenship rights |
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| (1647286) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:16:15 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 08:11:20 2019. He opposes birthright citizenship. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 08:39:27 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:16:15 2019. So what? The ratifiers of the Fourteenth Amendment didn’t believe in that either. Anchor babies are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. |
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| (1647288) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:48:22 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 08:39:27 2019. Ah, so you're another one who wants to deport me to a country I've only visited for a few weeks in my entire life.I believe that (fortunately for me) the Supreme Court disagrees with your interpretation. |
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| (1647289) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 08:49:33 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 08:39:27 2019. How did you arrive at that conclusion?The Fourteenth Amendment only states: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." If a baby is born here, he or she is a US citizen. That includes so-called "anchor babies". If you are born here, you're "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States by definition. |
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| (1647290) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:56:20 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:48:22 2019. PS. I really doubt that my mother, an undocumented non-resident alien at the time of my birth in the United States, would have been able to fight a parking ticket at the time on the grounds that she was not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. She wasn't a diplomat or the spouse of a diplomat. |
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| (1647291) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:58:54 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 08:39:27 2019. So Kamala Harris isn't eligible to run for President because both her parents were non-resident aliens here on student visas at the time of her birth? |
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| (1647293) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 09:00:06 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 08:49:33 2019. LINK |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:10:54 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 09:00:06 2019. The Supreme Court does not share your interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment, nor does it agree with the hard-right Heritage Foundation. |
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| (1647296) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Aug 11 09:14:47 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 07:34:12 2019. To put it simply, it is none of your fucking business why a citizen, not convicted of a crime, or prohibited for any other legal reason, would want to own a semiautomatic gun. Do you now understand the law? |
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| (1647297) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:20:40 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Aug 11 09:14:47 2019. It is very much my fucking business, you insipid bag of steaming worm shit, because I have a legitimate fucking interest in being able to go to the mall, the park, a concert, or any other public place without being fucking shot just for being there, by a person with such a fucking weapon.I'm sure you can't grasp the concept of public safety, because you are a self-absorbed filthbucket with no consideration for anyone but yourself. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Aug 11 09:23:06 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:20:40 2019. The law says that you are wrong you pants shitting,pussy. |
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| (1647301) | |
Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:39:11 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Aug 11 09:23:06 2019. I know you're just fine living in a society where someone with an AR-15 can kill an innocent child, or anyone else, on a whim.The rest of us have a problem with that. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Aug 11 09:44:10 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:39:11 2019. On the contrary, we are not fine with that. That's why it's against the law. On the other hand, with your brilliant logic, you'd favor taking cars from non drinkers to prevent children being killed by a drunk driver. You are just such a little pussy. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:51:28 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Aug 11 09:44:10 2019. You still fail to grasp that I have every right to question the legitimacy of ordinary people owning semi-automatic rifles. It's a clear public safety hazard, and without these battlefield weapons, we wouldn't think twice about going to public places.Oh, wait, we shouldn't have to. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 09:54:23 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:51:28 2019. People kill large numbers by crashing into them with automobiles. Are we going to ban those next? What if someone takes a school bus and runs it into a playground? |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:59:42 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 09:54:23 2019. There are more stringent legal requirements to operate a car, including practical proficiency testing and medical fitness testing, than there are to purchase a gun. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 10:09:30 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 09:59:42 2019. There is no right to an automobile in the Constitution |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:10:25 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:12:37 2019. I don't know where you get your information from but a New York it is 10 in the magazine Plus 10 in the Chamber. Active and retired LEOs are the exception.They can have 15 in the magazine plus 1 in the chamber. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:11:28 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Aug 11 07:25:08 2019. Even a retired old pensioner such as myself practices and qualifies yearly.😎 |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:13:23 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:37:52 2019. Just so you know you have your information wrong about the 7 rounds in the magazine. You can't have 10 in New York state in the magazine, and if you are active or retired law enforcement you can have 15 in the magazine |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:13:41 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:37:52 2019. Just so you know you have your information wrong about the 7 rounds in the magazine. You can have 10 in New York state in the magazine, and if you are active or retired law enforcement you can have 15 in the magazine |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:15:42 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 07:20:45 2019. Well, you are wrong about it lacerating the Second Amendment. Australia is not the United States and they do not have a second amendment. We do, that's just the way it goes. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:18:55 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:40:09 2019. Do you realize with that statement you are just pushing your own personal opinion as something that should be obeyed? As someone who is qualified to say something on the subject, I think that full size magazines should still be allowed in New York state, but Prince and the boy just had to grandstand. That will be overturned one day, even with the Democratic party controlling both houses in the state |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 11 10:26:44 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:15:42 2019. Think about this, though. An AR-15 might not be of grave concern to you, until it finds its way into the hands of someone like Kaboni Savage, an irredeemably evil little monster who would give Whitey Bulger or John Gotti a run for their money. I'm not saying the Second Amendment should be repealed, I'm saying there have to be meaningful limits on what types of weapons are permitted under it. There is no reason for a rifle that can send as many people to the hereafter in 30 seconds as the Dayton shooter did, to have such a presence in our society. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 10:53:32 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 10:09:30 2019. There is no right to a 100-bullet magazine in the Constitution. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 10:55:23 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Aug 11 10:18:55 2019. Of course it's my personal opinion, just as your personal opinion is that 100 bullets are OK. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Aug 11 10:56:05 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 10:09:30 2019. +10 Bitchslap |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 10:58:17 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 10:53:32 2019. An arm would be quite ineffective without a magazine. The question based on existing precedent would be whether it was in common use |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Aug 11 11:09:18 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 07:12:37 2019. The thing is that this only comes up after "mass shootings." The two biggest mass shootings in American history would not have been prevented by any of this. Both Stephen Paddock and Omar Mateen would have been absolutely qualified to buy their guns.The only solution that will satisfy the gun-grabbers is second amendment repeal. That's the problem I have with it. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 11:21:17 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Aug 11 11:09:18 2019. Mateen fired 110 shots. Do you think he would have managed that if he had only had access to magazines that contained 10 bullets?And of course everyday violence is a much stronger reason for greater controls. It's clear that many people in Indiana are acting as unlicensed dealers, buying lots of guns and selling them to Chicago thugs. Or else the licensed dealers in Indiana are unscrupulous. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Aug 11 11:21:59 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 08:00:44 2019. There's a simple solution to that: The protection order means no guns until the order is lifted, and possibly for a reasonable, fixed period thereafter. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 11:23:14 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Mtk52983 on Sun Aug 11 10:58:17 2019. Other than for target practice, people have no legitimate common use for firing 100 consecutive bullets. |
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Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 11 11:24:39 2019, in response to Re: I'm sick of all the gun control advocacy, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Aug 11 11:21:59 2019. How long is reasonable? For some people, 1 minute. For others, their entire lives. It depends on the nature of the events that resulted in the protection order. |
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