|
|
| Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists? (1281894) | |
 |
|
| Home > OTChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 4 of 4 |
||
|
| (1282288) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists? |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 21 14:40:53 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 21 14:27:03 2015. I thought he was quite successful at pointing out at least one. |
|
|
| (1282291) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 14:55:14 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 21 14:40:06 2015. But he's the one trying to prove something to us, so he could be a little more specific. People her do post links with comment. |
|
|
| (1282303) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 21 15:42:50 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 14:55:14 2015. Wasn't that the first post of the thread? |
|
|
| (1282318) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 16:16:50 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 21 15:42:50 2015. It read: "More reading for those of you who don't understand what the fundamentalist Christian Zionists want out of their relationship with the Jews and Israel. Short version: It isn't good for the Jews."That's pretty general. |
|
|
| (1282329) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 21 16:48:53 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 16:16:50 2015. But then the counter-arguments further generalized it as "Christians", which is way broader than what WMATA was claiming. Plus the article had other links which accused other Christian Zionists of similar beliefs. |
|
|
| (1282540) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists? |
|
|
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 22 16:42:43 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists?, posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 14:17:37 2015. Perhaps the applause was genuine and Democrats support Israel. Their issue had more to do with how that joint session was arranged, not the fact it was Netanyahu. Many of them are skeptical of the Iran deal as it is. |
|
|
| (1282541) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 22 16:43:40 2015, in response to Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 19 14:09:26 2015. Update: The reverend won't be attending the event. |
|
|
| (1282749) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Apr 23 11:15:27 2015, in response to Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 19 14:09:26 2015. http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/04/23/dutch-baptist-pastor-takes-to-the-streets-to-show-solidary-with-israel-and-jews/ |
|
|
| (1282751) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 11:17:57 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 22 16:43:40 2015. Since you're still on the thread, I wonder if you could comment on the very real moral dilemma I posted here with the immediately following responses from AlM and me. |
|
|
| (1282765) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 23 12:59:23 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 10:08:30 2015. I see both sides of the coin, but the situation here seems to be a bit different. There is no "Hitler" who the Christian Zionists are trying to protect us from (unless you consider the ayatollahs in Iran to qualify, I'm not sure that they do just yet). The other difference between then and now is that we have a homeland to use as refuge and that was not an option during the Holocaust. The best way to support Israel and Zionism is to let the Israelis and the Jews of the world determine their own destiny. Christian Zionists rarely do this in the way that I think they should if they truly had Israel's and Jews' interests at heart. |
|
|
| (1282766) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 23 13:00:21 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Apr 23 11:15:27 2015. Without knowing what was on his handouts, that is good to hear. |
|
|
| (1282767) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 23 13:00:40 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 11:18:42 2015. should those Jewish parents in World War II have refused to let their children go into that convent and be raised Catholic? Or should they have allowed their children to die pure?That's a question for your local Orthodox Rabbi. |
|
|
| (1282773) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:04:12 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 23 13:00:40 2015. The local Orthodox Rabbi is not the parent of my children. |
|
|
| (1282779) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 23 13:14:17 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:04:12 2015. Doesn't matter. If you want to know the answer to your question, you have to understand Jewish law on this matter. Relevant laws may include those that deal with which sins you must give up your life for in order to prevent doing them and does that apply to people under the age of bar/bat mitzvah. Your local Orthodox Rabbi would be the one to answer those questions. |
|
|
| (1282781) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:16:20 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 23 12:59:23 2015. I would really like to know about what you think about the different perspectives my mother and I had. If the parents knew (or had good reason to suspect) their children might be forced converts, were they right to give them up to the Church?Would the children have been better off dead than Catholic and lost to Judaism? |
|
|
| (1282784) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:18:28 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 23 13:14:17 2015. If my local Orthodox Rabbi said the children would be better off martyrs than lost to Judaism, would I be right to allow them to be killed? |
|
|
| (1282785) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 23 13:22:09 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Tue Apr 21 11:18:42 2015. My 2 cents worth would be that you can choose to die rather than convert. But letting your children die rather than letting them be brought up under a different religion is very iffy to say the least. |
|
|
| (1282789) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:32:08 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 23 13:22:09 2015. A fair answer. I would have to believe that my children would be doomed to literal* Hell in the afterlife, and even then I would question my moral judgment.*Yes, I mean literal. |
|
|
| (1282808) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Apr 23 14:33:28 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:18:28 2015. First, do you disagree with the law that says you have to give up your life for those 3 certain sins? |
|
|
| (1282832) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 15:13:35 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Apr 23 14:33:28 2015. Suppose I did. |
|
|
| (1282841) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 23 15:20:49 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 15:13:35 2015. So then the next logical step is to find out if it applies to everyone or only those over bar/bat mitzva age. Right? This isn't rocket science. |
|
|
| (1282852) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 15:44:29 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 23 15:20:49 2015. Do you have children? |
|
|
| (1282894) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Apr 23 17:23:52 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:16:20 2015. Would the children have been better off dead than Catholic and lost to Judaism?If during the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia, a good Bosnian couple had saved some Jewish children from a certain death and raised them as Muslims, would you have approved? |
|
|
| (1282896) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Apr 23 17:28:29 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Apr 23 11:15:27 2015. A Netherlands-based Baptist pastor and members of his churchAjax fans. |
|
|
| (1282927) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Apr 23 18:33:05 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SMAZ on Thu Apr 23 17:23:52 2015. Highly unlikely. |
|
|
| (1282934) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 23 18:52:11 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SMAZ on Thu Apr 23 17:23:52 2015. I would. Even if they were raised scientologists. |
|
|
| (1282953) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 23 20:17:05 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 13:16:20 2015. I think I want the chance to study what Jewish law and teachings have to say on the topic before I give you any more of an answer. The suggestion of asking one's local rabbi what to do in this circumstance is not ridiculous, it is a complex issue with many ramifications and I'd want to know far more about the topic before responding here. |
|
|
| (1283088) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri Apr 24 07:23:32 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 23 15:44:29 2015. You better believe it. Thank G-d my youngest is now officially sleeping through the night, I think. |
|
|
| (1283110) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Fri Apr 24 08:38:09 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri Apr 24 07:23:32 2015. Mazel tov. So if, G-d forbid, you were faced with such a situation, would your first instinct be to let your rabbi determine your children's fate? |
|
|
| (1283114) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Fri Apr 24 08:47:40 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SMAZ on Thu Apr 23 17:23:52 2015. You're asking me about "a good Bosnian couple," Faced with the enormity of certain death, I would pray they would not raise them to hate Jews; but with life there is hope and I would pray G-d would understand and guide them. |
|
|
| (1283116) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Fri Apr 24 08:58:57 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 23 20:17:05 2015. I don't see this as a purely or even primarlly theological question. The family is the most elemental building block of society and parents are the primary protectors of their children.But G-d did not stay the hand of the Nazis in murdering the six million; could I be certain that G-d did not use the Church as an instrumntality to save the few? |
|
|
| (1283238) | |
Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Fri Apr 24 20:14:47 2015, in response to Re: Jews, Israel, and Christian Zionists, posted by SLRT on Fri Apr 24 08:47:40 2015. A good couple wouldn't raise kids to hate anyone or they wouldn't be "good".Bosnian Muslims in general are pretty awesome people. It's why I cringe at generalized, ignorant attacks on Muslims. |
|
|
|
Page 4 of 4 |
||