NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote (1278937) | |
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NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015 Setting themselves up for a bigger fall than Detroit. Just a step away from allowing illegals to vote too.Manchester Guardian
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 5 21:02:46 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015. I stopped at "left leaning" at the beginning of the second graf. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 5 21:09:28 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015. So you oppose the right to vote?I guess democracy is a bit too liberal for you... |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Apr 5 21:20:06 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015. This happened in the 1800's too.If I move to Germany, Britain or any other EU country, I can vote in their local elections. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:21:18 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 5 21:02:46 2015. So you have no problem with non citizens voting? |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:25:51 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 5 21:09:28 2015. If you are a United States citizen yes. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 5 21:09:28 2015. I am with ChicagoMotorman here. The right to vote is a right conferred by citizenship. If you are not a citizen of the United States, you do not have the right to vote in any election: federal, state or local |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 09:49:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015. I don't see the justification for that. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:55:30 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015. Well Thank you! |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 09:49:11 2015. The justification is the United States Constitution. The text of the 15th Amendment is clear: "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."Voting is a right stemming from being a United States citizen |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 09:57:07 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:21:18 2015. Every vote by a non-citizen is one stolen from a citizen. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:58:08 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 09:57:07 2015. iawtlp |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:02:09 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015. No, the right to vote does not stem from the 15th amendment. And it still says nothing about restricting the right to vote to citizens.On the other hand, the Confederate Constitution quite clearly restricted the right to vote to Confederate citizens. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:03:23 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015. Also, you missed the point. Whether or not the Constitution states that the right to vote is a right conferred only on citizens (it doesn't), does not at all justify why it should be a right conferred only on citizens. All of the arguments seem to boil down to tradition or some other bullshit. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:06:36 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 09:57:07 2015. LOL!Letting non-citizens vote doesn't prevent citizens from voting. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:08:18 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:58:08 2015. I can't comprehend how anyone would think having their vote stolen from them is good. Doublethink really exists! |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:09:57 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:08:18 2015. I can't comprehend how anyone would think more people voting is having your vote stolen. You probably still resent that they let women vote and abolished literacy tests for voting. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 10:26:54 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:09:57 2015. It dilutes the votes of actual United States citizens because if 100 citizens vote 60-40 for one candidate but the candidate that got 40 votes wins 21-0 among non-citizens then the candidate that lost the vote of the citizens will win the election if you allow non-citizens to vote |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:28:25 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:06:36 2015. But it potentially dilutes the vote of citizens. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:29:48 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:03:23 2015. Can you name another country that allows non-citizens to vote in their national elections? |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:32:58 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015. There is no an explicit provision in the Constitution guaranteeing the right to vote but several amendments guarantee the right to vote at age 18, free of racial discrimination, and protected by the Equal Protection doctrine. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:37:59 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 10:26:54 2015. It dilutes the votes of actual male Americans because if 100 men vote 60-40 for one candidate but the candidate that got 40 votes wins 21-0 among women then the candidate that lost the vote of the men will win the election if you allow women to vote.Now I don't think that denying the right to vote for non-citizens is nearly as horrible as other kinds of voter restrictions (I'm not sure that it's horrible at all), but your argument is completely interchangeable with arguments against allowing women or minorities to vote. It's most analogous, IMO to allowing 18-20 year olds to vote. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:41:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:29:48 2015. This thread isn't about national elections. But anyway: when it comes to liberals complaining about some policy that other countries have that we don't (like single payer healthcare), conservatives rail on about "exceptionalism" and why the policies of other countries aren't good enough for America because America is so great.If America is so great, it can be the first to do something good. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Apr 6 10:45:19 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015. I thought only USA citizens could vote in any election. But, I'm not surprised that William Castro-Ortega DeBlasio would attempt to do this! |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:46:37 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:32:58 2015. Yes. There is no constitutional right for non-citizens to vote, but it is within the power of the legislature to allow them to. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:52:49 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:41:11 2015. So "something good" is stealing votes from citizens, solely to benefit the politicians???You're crazier than I thought. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:58:32 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:29:48 2015. He wants to disenfranchise citizens—including women—all for the sole benefit of the politicians. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:00:00 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:28:25 2015. "Dilutes"? No, it's called disenfranchisement.And who benefits? Neither the citizens nor non-citizens. Solely the politicians, who lie about "representing" the non-citizens (at the expense of citizens, take note, if it were true). |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:04:01 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 10:26:54 2015. It's like allowing English citizens a vote on whether the original thirteen colonies ought to break away from the Empire. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:05:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:32:58 2015. . . . to citizens. Nations have borders.Let's try and do this "non-citizen voting" thing in Red China, shall we? |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:05:43 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:00:00 2015. You don't even know what disenfranchisement is. Just like you don't know what "protected class" means. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:06:14 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:04:01 2015. Except that they did have a vote on that, dipshit. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:08:04 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:05:11 2015. You mean the country where voting is meaningless because it's a single party dictatorship?Why are you so obsessed with communist countries? Sounds like you secretly wish the US were one of those. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:21:00 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:00:00 2015. No, it's not disenfranchisement. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:26:12 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:21:00 2015. How is it not disenfranchisement?? Taking votes away from citizens does not merely "dilute the vote"—it destroys it. And nobody benefits but the politicians. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:28:44 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:21:00 2015. No, it's not.I was hoping for someone sane like you or mtk to continue arguing against this proposal. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:35:57 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:26:12 2015. How is letting a non-citizen vote taking away the vote of a citizen? The non-citizen's vote may "cancel out" the citizen's vote; it may throw an election to a candidate who would not have otherwise won; but the citizen is still able to cast a vote. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:41:01 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:35:57 2015. So canceling out by non-citizens is not disenfranchisement?It's absolutely not the same as citizens putatively "canceling out" each others' votes. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 11:57:30 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015. Voting is a right stemming from being a United States citizenOK, so the 15th amendment allows the government to deny your right to vote if you are a non-citizen. And the government has done that, and all is well. But where does it say that the government MUST deny your right to vote? |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 12:43:25 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:41:01 2015. Technically the correct word is "dilution" not "disenfranchisement" |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 13:18:27 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:08:04 2015. Wouldn't you love the United States to be a one party. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 13:20:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 13:18:27 2015. No, I wouldn't. Olog-hai, on the other hand, is obsessed with one party states. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 13:56:36 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:41:01 2015. So canceling out by non-citizens is not disenfranchisement?No, it's not. Merriam-Webster defines disenfranchise as: "to deprive of a franchise, of a legal right, or of some privilege or immunity; especially : to deprive of the right to vote" In U.S. law, disfranchisement most commonly refers to the removal of the right to vote. A non-citizen voting doesn't deprive a citizen from his or her right to vote. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 13:58:56 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:28:25 2015. Which is a valid reason for not allowing non-citizens to vote. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 14:00:16 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 13:58:56 2015. How so? |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 14:08:44 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 13:58:56 2015. I agree. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 14:13:52 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 14:00:16 2015. Members of an organization get to decide how the organization is run. That includes deciding what voice they want to give to non-members, and the process for admitting new members. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 14:18:26 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 14:13:52 2015. EXCELLENT POST! THANK YOU! |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 6 14:22:36 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015. SMAZZA, AlM, Bauman, Kevin from Midwood, SUBWAYSURF, FtGG, clearaspect G1Ravage, and FuckBklyn1959 are all in agreement with this.I can see this List helping people register to vote. |
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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 14:28:29 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 6 14:22:36 2015. SMAZZA, AlM, Bauman, Kevin from Midwood, SUBWAYSURF, FtGG, clearaspect G1Ravage, and FuckBklyn1959 are all in agreement with this.Ha. Tap knee. Knee jerks forward. |
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