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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 14 20:41:22 2014, in response to Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by DAnD124 on Fri Mar 14 16:24:03 2014. That ascent to 45k is worrisome - it's above the aircraft's design. Asphyxia in the cabin has had that result in various incidents over the years where the plane has gone up and over the top, then dropped a lot, then leveled out and flew until it ran out of fuel with everybody on board already dead. :( |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Mar 15 00:30:43 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Mar 14 17:17:53 2014. The so called experts say the runway would have to be 7,500 feet long and about 100 feet wide. The runway could be shorter if you didn't intend to take the plane up again. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:15:00 2014, in response to Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by DAnD124 on Fri Mar 14 16:24:03 2014. And yet MORE squirrels ...http://www.news.com.au/world/oil-rig-worker-says-he-saw-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-burst-into-flames/story-fndir2ev-1226853302184 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:21:09 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:15:00 2014. And there's also this. :)http://vietnam.craigslist.org/for/4372477162.html |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Mar 15 01:24:37 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:15:00 2014. C2C talked about the oil rig worker days ago.Can you hear C2C now? They're covering this story. |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:30:15 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Mar 15 01:24:37 2014. Nope ... all I can hear is the whirring of fans on six machines building code. Given that this story is three days old now, I would have expected something to come of it. One of my buds in Chennai says that he heard that the plane had been FOUND about two hours ago, in Pakistan. That'd be some miraculous tailwind to get it there too. :) |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Mar 15 01:43:26 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:30:15 2014. Malaysian government will announce in a few hours they think the plane was hijacked.C2C is great coverage. |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:57:42 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Mar 15 01:43:26 2014. They already did. Reuters had it two hours ago. Problem here is that nobody has any facts for sure, so we still don't really know until they actually find something. |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 06:50:50 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 15 01:57:42 2014. Some official "facts"now.- Flight continued for 7 more hours after transponder shut off. - Satellite signals indicate either a path toward Kazakhstan or toward the southern Indian Ocean. The former is highly unlikely. The Indian, Pakistani, and Chinese Air Forces are always on the lookout for suspicious incursions. And the US would be monitoring anything within a thousand miles of Afghanistan. I'd say the most likely explanation at the moment is pilot or copilot suicide with the intention of the wreckage never being found in the immense area of the Indian Ocean. |
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Specific details Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 07:07:57 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 06:50:50 2014. http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost-193.htmlSome genuine confirmed facts here. He says the NTSB concurs, so if they don't they'll say so. ACARS being turned off before the plane left over-land, and the transponder only later, sounds like a crew member at work. A hijacking before the plane left land would have resulted in any number of cell phone calls. This plane is down somewhere in a million square miles of Indian Ocean. In the first phase of the search operation, we searched near MH370’s last known position, in the South China Sea. At the same time, it was brought to our attention by the Royal Malaysian Air Force that, based on their primary radar, an aircraft – the identity of which could not be confirmed – made a turn back. The primary radar data showed the aircraft proceeding on a flight path which took it to an area north of the Straits of Malacca. Given this credible data, which was subsequently corroborated with the relevant international authorities, we expanded the area of search to include the Straits of Malacca and, later, to the Andaman Sea. Early this morning I was briefed by the investigation team – which includes the FAA, NTSB, the AAIB, the Malaysian authorities and the Acting Minister of Transport – on new information that sheds further light on what happened to MH370. Based on new satellite information, we can say with a high degree of certainty that the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was disabled just before the aircraft reached the East coast of peninsular Malaysia. Shortly afterwards, near the border between Malaysian and Vietnamese air traffic control, the aircraft’s transponder was switched off. From this point onwards, the Royal Malaysian Air Force primary radar showed that an aircraft which was believed – but not confirmed – to be MH370 did indeed turn back. It then flew in a westerly direction back over peninsular Malaysia before turning northwest. Up until the point at which it left military primary radar coverage, these movements are consistent with deliberate action by someone on the plane. Today, based on raw satellite data that was obtained from the satellite data service provider, we can confirm that the aircraft shown in the primary radar data was flight MH370. After much forensic work and deliberation, the FAA, NTSB, AAIB and the Malaysian authorities, working separately on the same data, concur. According to the new data, the last confirmed communication between the plane and the satellite was at 8:11AM Malaysian time on Saturday 8th March. The investigations team is making further calculations which will indicate how far the aircraft may have flown after this last point of contact. This will help us to refine the search. Due to the type of satellite data, we are unable to confirm the precise location of the plane when it last made contact with the satellite. |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Mar 15 09:12:11 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 06:50:50 2014. I'd say the most likely explanation at the moment is pilot or copilot suicide with the intention of the wreckage never being foundI have never heard of such a thing. Who goes to such lengths to commit suicide? But I guess that I can't think of anything more likely. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 09:31:55 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Easy on Sat Mar 15 09:12:11 2014. I have never heard of such a thing.This was almost certainly a pilot suicide. And maybe the current pilot/co-pilot wanted to avoid the black box being found. |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Mar 15 09:37:06 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 09:31:55 2014. Oh, yeah I know about that. I meant the elaborate plan to fly it one thousand miles away so that the wreckage is never found. It's the difference between someone jumping in front of a bus and someone hijacking a bus and taking it to the middle of the Nevada desert and driving it off a remote cliff. |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Mar 15 11:06:54 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 09:31:55 2014. Two possible routes are being looked at in the search for the missing plane, which authorities are now almost certain was skyjacked. |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Mar 15 11:10:09 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Mar 15 11:06:54 2014. The US had suggested two different routes. So who do you believe right now? I believe the US because they were the first to make public that the plane was still aloft 4 hours after the transponders were turned off. The Malaysians immediately denied that was the case. |
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Posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 11:57:28 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 09:31:55 2014. I don't buy the pilot suicide argument. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 12:46:24 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 11:57:28 2014. It's very hard to accept. But what's left? Everything else has far greater implausibilities? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 12:48:23 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Easy on Sat Mar 15 11:10:09 2014. The northern route is totally impossible to believe. It flies over countries that are constantly on the lookout for hostile incursions. |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Mar 15 12:51:14 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 12:48:23 2014. Depends on how sophisticated the hijacking and whether any nations were involved. They turn the transponders off and then two hours later turn a phony transponder on. Is that possible? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Mar 15 16:14:37 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 12:46:24 2014. Terrorism is implausible? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Mar 15 16:20:04 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 09:31:55 2014. Almost certainly???? |
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Posted by Charles G on Sat Mar 15 16:20:56 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Mar 15 16:14:37 2014. Terrorism by someone other than the pilot or co-pilot seems implausible at this point. I'm sure they have gone over the passenger manifest multiple times looking for terror connections and if there were someone of interest, we'd have heard a leak by now.Further, there has been no claim of responsibility -- which makes the terrorist event kind of pointless when nobody knows who was responsible. With that in mind, even "terrorism" by one of the pilots seems quite unlikely. |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:35:25 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Mar 15 16:14:37 2014. Yes. The first communication system was turned off when they were still over land. If there was a hijacking there would have been dozens of text messages from passengers.Over water cell phones wouldn't work, but if the hijacking was only over the water, then why was the first communications system turned off? |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:38:28 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Mar 15 16:20:04 2014. See my other post for why no hijackers.And catastrophic failure is ruled out by the plane flying 7 more hours. So what else? |
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Posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 16:40:09 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 12:46:24 2014. People who commit suicide want people to know that they've committed suicide. They're going to leave a trail indicating that they've done that and they're going to want the evidence to be found. I'd buy a pilot suicide if the plane crashed about where it lost communication. Several hours after that point, I'd imagine someone planning on committing suicide might have second thoughts. A suicidal pilot would not go to the remotest part of the Indian Ocean to commit suicide though. |
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Posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 16:42:30 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:38:28 2014. The plane is in the desert in Western China and landed more or less safely. What I don't know is the status of the passengers or crew.That Chinese "satellite" image that came out that sent all of the search and rescue operations into the South China Sea between Malaysia and Thailand bought the Chinese government some time to hide the plane as nobody was focused on Western China at that time. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:45:55 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 16:40:09 2014. The idea of a pilot committing suicide with a plane-load of people is incomprehensible to me. But maybe he had a grudge against Chinese people. And maybe he didn't want to saddle his family with the shame of it being recognized that he had killed them.Imagine everyone saying about one of his kids "His father killed 240 people." |
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Posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 16:49:32 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:45:55 2014. Yes, but not plausible. Most of the mass murders or murder/suicides over the last 10 years have the the killer leave some sort of "signature" where the killer gets notoriety.I believe that the plane did land. I'm not sure if it's still in one piece at this time though. I also fear most of those on board are no longer with us. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:51:59 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 16:42:30 2014. OK, a plot by the Chinese government could work. Though the plane would have had to avoid Indian airspace to get there.But what's the point? The plane was coming to China anyway. And consider the risk to them that one of the hundreds of Chinese who would have to be part of the conspiracy might leak it. Or are you suggesting a hijacking to China by a Uighur? Pretty adept - there was only on on the plane. Why would the Chinese government conceal that? And why would the first communications system have been turned off while they were still over land? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:54:54 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 16:49:32 2014. The mass murdered operating EgyptAir Flight 990 didn't hide his tracks as skillfully as I'm thinking happened here, but he certainly didn't seek out attention for having committed his crime either. |
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Posted by Charles G on Sat Mar 15 16:56:11 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 16:35:25 2014. I don't think that cell phones would work over land at 35,000 feet. I have accidentally left my phone on for an entire flight -- but got no emails or texts at any point within 5-10 minutes of takeoff and landing.Still, doubtful that it was a hijacking (other than by the crew). |
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Posted by Charles G on Sat Mar 15 16:56:34 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by TonyG on Sat Mar 15 16:40:09 2014. People who commit suicide don't want you to know they committed suicide if they want their life insurance to pay off. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 17:14:44 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Charles G on Sat Mar 15 16:56:11 2014. UA 93 passengers successfully made calls. I've also read that texting works pretty well even when voice doesn't. Also, how do you do a hijacking so quick there's no time for a mayday call? Only if the pilots leave the door open all the time. You can't hang around the door waiting for a pilot to come out for a lavatory stop.Anyway, we agree, a hijacking just seems incredibly unlikely. |
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Posted by Charles G on Sat Mar 15 17:28:39 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 17:14:44 2014. Nearly all the calls from UA93 were "Airphone" calls and not cell phone calls. Towards the very end of the flight they were flying below 10,000 feet and that is when the few cell phone calls happened (according to wikipedia there were only 2 cell phone calls that connected -- I'm sure many people tried).I don't know if this plane was equipped with an "Airphone" system -- I haven't been on a plane that has one in quite some time. I'm guessing that UA93 was a plane that had phone's in the back of each seat which was pretty common in the late 90's |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 17:31:16 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Charles G on Sat Mar 15 17:28:39 2014. Ah, I had forgotten Airphone was still around then. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Mar 15 18:55:20 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 17:14:44 2014. Above 15,000 feet its fairly certain that cell phones would not reach a tower. |
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Malaysia Airlines Jet Made 'Tactical Aviation Maneuvers': Law Enforcement Officials |
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Posted by DAnD124 on Sun Mar 16 00:41:33 2014, in response to Malaysian Airlines Says Plane With 239 Is Missing, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 7 20:58:11 2014. http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airlines-jet-made-tactical-aviation-maneuvers-law/story?id=22922961 |
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Re: Malaysia Airlines Jet Made 'Tactical Aviation Maneuvers': Law Enforcement Officials |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Mar 16 00:42:26 2014, in response to Malaysia Airlines Jet Made 'Tactical Aviation Maneuvers': Law Enforcement Officials, posted by DAnD124 on Sun Mar 16 00:41:33 2014. Yeah, it turned. We know. |
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Re: Malaysia Airlines Jet Made 'Tactical Aviation Maneuvers': Law Enforcement Officials |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 16 06:49:02 2014, in response to Malaysia Airlines Jet Made 'Tactical Aviation Maneuvers': Law Enforcement Officials, posted by DAnD124 on Sun Mar 16 00:41:33 2014. Summary of press conference at 5:30 PM Malaysian time.Malaysian investigators have categorically denied speculation that the pilot and/or FO asked to fly together. -investigation has entered a new phase with involvement of more countries along the North Corridor (11 countries making a total of 25 countries involved in SAR). Malaysian PM has spoken to the PMs/Presidents of some countries along the Northern Corridor. Focus has shifted away from South China Sea. -Police are using Acts covering sabotage, hijacking etc in their investigations including cargo manifest, personal problems including all ground crew, pilot's flight sim, pax background checks (some international police agencies have cleared all pax- no negative records on them). Section 130 (c) applied and data release classified. -satellite and radar info has been requested from all countries concerned in possible flight path and those who have global coverage over suspected areas. -Immediate financial assistance (not compensation) being given to families of pax -Plane took off with plenty of fuel for original flight plus some extra for contingencies. There was no extra fuel (otherwise). -Flight simulator has been taken by Police and is being examined by experts -Primary military data (revealed to investigative partners when normally not done), with satellite data is the reason for shift of focus -no hazardous substance in cargo manifest. -new information received yesterday being investigated - will be verified and corroborated before being released -cannot divulge military radar data from other sources -minimum speed and max speed a/c can fly has been taken into account in determining the possible flight path corridors |
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Re: Malaysia Airlines Jet Made 'Tactical Aviation Maneuvers': Law Enforcement Officials |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 16 07:22:35 2014, in response to Malaysia Airlines Jet Made 'Tactical Aviation Maneuvers': Law Enforcement Officials, posted by DAnD124 on Sun Mar 16 00:41:33 2014. Some basic facts.The plane was operated very skillfully after the transponder was off. The route flown by the plane after the transponder was turned off involved the absolute minimum interaction with observational systems: transponder turned off right at the handoff from Malaysia to Vietnam, direct crossing over Malaysia again before being out over open water where no one would track it. The ACARS system was turned off first, before the transponder. There were further routine oral communications with the crew after the ACARS system was turned off, and possibly even after the transponder was turned off. It's extremely easy for a pilot to send a distress signal from the transponder without being noticed by a hijacker. The FBI has checked out every single passenger and crew member and found no associations with terrorists. The plane was flown about as long as it could have before running out of fuel. |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Mar 16 08:04:34 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by AlM on Sat Mar 15 06:50:50 2014. The former is highly unlikely. The Indian, Pakistani, and Chinese Air Forces are always on the lookout for suspicious incursions.Look at that WSW-ly track across Malaya. It's almost as if they were aiming for just south of Sri Lanka, before turning NW and heading for Iran. |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Mar 16 08:20:21 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Mar 16 08:04:34 2014. It'd be crazy if it turned out that there was someone very important on the plane. Like a nuclear scientist. |
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Posted by TonyG on Sun Mar 16 08:57:53 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Mar 16 08:04:34 2014. Apparently, per airliners.net, the Indian military radar was off on the night of the disappearance. |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 16 12:09:33 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Mar 16 08:04:34 2014. No one would expect a plane fueled for a flight to Beijing to be able to make it to Iran that way. |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Mar 16 13:03:10 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by TonyG on Sun Mar 16 08:57:53 2014. Their entire military radar system?!? Yeah right! lol |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Mar 16 14:06:32 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Easy on Sun Mar 16 13:03:10 2014. You'd be surprised. Several Indian sources have said that they don't normally have the radar up and running. |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Mar 16 17:29:30 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Charles G on Sun Mar 16 14:06:32 2014. Do they even have a working radar system anyway, or is it just a bunch of kit they have for show that is functionally useless? |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Mar 16 17:41:16 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Mar 16 17:29:30 2014. I'd guess they have something up and running on their borders with Pakistan and China. They probably don't perceive much threat from the South and East and would be more likely to have weaker (or no) systems there.My speculation only. |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Mar 16 18:48:37 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Charles G on Sun Mar 16 14:06:32 2014. I am surprised considering Indian authorities have stated that they are 100% confident that the Malaysian plane did not fly over their air space. Is the entire region full of liars and grandstanders? |
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Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Mar 16 19:04:00 2014, in response to Re: Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?, posted by Easy on Sun Mar 16 18:48:37 2014. I work with them almost daily ... pretty much. :(Power over there is incredibly unreliable, and so even if they had radars everywhere, chances are there wouldn't be any electricity. I get along great with my guys over there, but life isn't so pleasant for them. |
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