More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in

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More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 4 00:13:13 2014 fiogf49gjkf0d Associated Press Upstate NY struggles as more leave than move in By Michael Hill Jan. 3, 2014 10:03 AM EST Melissa Grothues and John Steele bailed from Buffalo last year. Dissatisfied with their bank jobs, the 25-year-old college graduates sold the house in suburban Amherst, posted ads for possessions on Craigslist and drove cross country to San Diego for a fresh start. "We were ready for a bigger city and to move on. There just weren't many opportunities in Buffalo, job-wise," Grothues said. "It just seemed like day-to-day there, every single person that I worked with would be miserable." The young couple is hardly alone in exiting upstate New York. More people are leaving the region than moving into it, contributing to a largely stagnant population. The trend has helped lead to New York losing four congressional seats in the last two Census counts and is about to cost the state some prestige. At some point early this year, Florida is expected to surpass New York as the third most populous state, according to projections by The Associated Press. New York is home to about 19.65 million people, but the state's slow growth is largely fueled by New York City, which has long attracted a large share of international immigrants and young adults, including many from upstate. The story is different north of the Westchester-Rockland county line. The population of the 53 counties of upstate New York was essentially flat, decreasing by 0.1 percent from 2011 to 2012, according to the latest county-level Census estimates available. Though there have been pockets of growth in the Hudson Valley and some other areas, many upstate areas grapple with a slow but steady loss of people. Why are people leaving upstate New York? Some complain that taxes in New York are too high. Others, like Grotheus, say there are better job opportunities elsewhere. State and local officials have had mixed success in luring high-tech companies and other new businesses to make up for jobs lost when large employers like Eastman Kodak Co. and Carrier Corp. scaled back or shifted operations elsewhere. "Part of it is probably due to job loss in the major metropolitan areas like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Binghamton. They all had large employers that had to lay off a lot of people," said Jan Vink of Cornell University's Program on Applied Demographics. Others blame the weather in upstate New York, where winters can be a trying mix of heavy snow and little sun. Kyle Songer moved to Tampa from the Saratoga Springs area in early 2013, becoming yet another New Yorker to leave behind cold and snow for sun and sand. The 45-year-old instructional designer says moving south was his goal since he fell in love with the beach and surfing while growing up and being a life guard on Long Island. "I needed to get out to a more relaxing environment and sunshine almost every day," said Songer, who now lives in Clearwater, Fla. "And that's what it's been. It's wonderful." In recent years, Florida has been the No. 1 destination for people aged 45 and up leaving upstate New York. The top destination for people aged 20 to 44 is New York City and the surrounding downstate region, according to researchers at Cornell who looked at census data from 2006 through 2010. The loss of young college graduates — like Grothues and Steele — is especially worrisome to local politicians because it can contribute to a so-called brain drain. The fear is that the loss of educated workers in an area can make it less attractive to new businesses, creating a cycle of decline. Politicians in both parties have tried for decades to reverse the migration trend, but the latest county figures show only 10 of 53 upstate counties had positive migration numbers over the year period. Top-growing Jefferson County is home to the Army's busy Fort Drum. No. 2 is Saratoga County, where a state-of-the-art computer chip plant that currently employs 2,100 people is still growing. New York committed $1.2 billion in aid to land the Saratoga County chip plant, where ground was broken in 2009. The aid package illustrates the extraordinary lengths state officials have gone to bring jobs into the region. Supporters of Gov. Andrew Cuomo's policy to create "tax free" zones near college campuses argue they will help stop the brain drain in other parts of the state. But they also are battling long-term trends that reach beyond upstate New York. Vink, of Cornell University, notes that young people are especially hard to retain. "It's a hard population to keep around," he said "They are very mobile."
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 00:17:38 2014, in response to More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 4 00:13:13 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d It's mostly the lack of jobs, especially in republican areas like Buffalo and other spots where they still rule. Meanwhile here, where we've gotten rid of the republicans in the capital district and environs, things be booming except for across the river in Rensselaer where they still have ... whoops ... republicans. Folks are still moving out of there. Can't have much in the way of services or jobs if nobody wants to fix or plow the roads, make sure there's water and keeping the schools supplied with teachers and books while handing out tax cuts to carpetbaggers who eat the tax breaks until they expire and then go somewhere else with new suckers to let them pocket the difference. Upstate is a PERFECT example of republican decay.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by David Fairthorne* on Sat Jan 4 00:32:31 2014, in response to More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 4 00:13:13 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d New York is not a Right to Work state. Could that have something to do with the exodus of jobs from New York?
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 00:47:18 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by David Fairthorne on Sat Jan 4 00:32:31 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d NYS has "employment at will" which is pretty much just as bad.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sat Jan 4 01:49:59 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by David Fairthorne on Sat Jan 4 00:32:31 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Wrong to Work should be abolished nationwide. That would help.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 02:02:22 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 4 01:49:59 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Thoroughly agreed, but then again even where that ISN'T the law, "employment at will" and the rules of engagement are pretty much the same thing. That's why unions existed to stop that stuff, but nowadays even the libs hate unions, so "right to work" everywhere now, even in Manhattan. :(
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Dave* on Sat Jan 4 03:49:07 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 00:17:38 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Keep telling yourself that.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 03:51:35 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Dave on Sat Jan 4 03:49:07 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Lol....its almost comical at this point. Its not worth debating anymore.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 03:57:02 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Dave on Sat Jan 4 03:49:07 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I'm watching the PROOF. Census is even tracking it. Republican areas are shrinking, democratic areas are growing. Dat's da fact, Jack. :) Sorry to piss on yours and Chris' parade, but I live here.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 03:57:20 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jan 4 03:51:35 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Sure ain't. Give it up. :)
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 03:58:56 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 03:57:20 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d BTW ... Schenectady went to crap with a republican mayor. THAT TOO is coming back now with immigrants from Guyana. So, no debate needed.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Dave* on Sat Jan 4 04:32:50 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 03:57:20 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Uh huh. You are aware that most of upstate lost population from 2000 - 2010? That 35 counties in upstate lost population between 2010 and 2012? That Broome County had the largest population loss of any county, down 2,540 people, or 1.3 percent, to a total of 198,060 people in 2012? And that the county executive from 2005 - 2011 was a Democrat? And what about Clinton County? It's lost population from 2010 to 2012? Did I mention that Clinton County is a Democratic county? And so on.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 08:20:20 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 03:57:02 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d No one is pissing....I am just not bothering withyour ppartisan nonsense. It really is tiring.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by RockParkMan* on Sat Jan 4 08:57:53 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Dave on Sat Jan 4 04:32:50 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Just goes to show that America is a broken, divided nation, better off breaking up.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by RockParkMan* on Sat Jan 4 09:19:00 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jan 4 08:20:20 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Why don't you just move to Jesusland. We'd be FAR better off without you, asswipe.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 10:10:55 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 03:57:02 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Maybe in New York. In California, the Central Valley (Republican land) is the fastest growing part of the state. Also, Arizona has once again turned on the growth machine.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 10:16:21 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 10:10:55 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Don't listen to the trolling.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 10:18:53 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jan 4 10:16:21 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I'm just not sure if there is the correlation that Kevin is saying. It doesn't seem to be working in other areas of the country such as California, Texas, Arizona, or parts of the south. The reason upstate is losing population is because of the fact that upstate New York is part of the "rust belt" of industrial towns that built up during the industrial revolution and the WWII era but as the US has lost industry, these places have lost jobs, and as such people are moving to places with jobs. Albany has done a good job in transforming itself into the "new economy" versus Buffalo, Rochester, and other places upstate.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Charles G* on Sat Jan 4 13:44:52 2014, in response to More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 4 00:13:13 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I don't know why anyone is playing politics with this subject. The population of upstate New York has been in decline for something like 40 or 50 years. Republican mayors, Democratic mayors, Republican congresspeople, Democratic congresspeople, Republican governors, Democratic governors. It doesn't matter and hasn't mattered.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sat Jan 4 13:54:14 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Charles G on Sat Jan 4 13:44:52 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d +1000!
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 14:54:09 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 10:18:53 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Don't try and bust his partisan rant on republicans.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Henry R32 #3730* on Sat Jan 4 15:00:47 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 00:17:38 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I'd hate to point out the donkey in the room, but Detroit basically flat out counters that argument. There are factors other than D/R which cause regional population decline. I am suprised that Buffalo hasn't been able to turn it around despite Cuomo's infusion of cash to the area. As for Rensselaer, I'm rooting for them. Since there's no hope at getting the station moved back to the correct side of the river, our best chance at making it more useful is if Rennselear as a town becomes more relevant. It's looking like they'll be getting their wish of having the Capital Region's casino. With the close proximity to the Massachusetts border and I90, I think they'll be doing fine in a few years - they finally found their gold rush.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 15:01:29 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Charles G on Sat Jan 4 13:44:52 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d You didn't see anyone playing politics??? Read any of selkirks posts.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Henry R32 #3730* on Sat Jan 4 15:06:37 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 02:02:22 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d While I completely agree that unions are important, without doing something to stop the outsourcing of skilled work to India and unskilled work to China, eliminating right to work is a bad idea. I'd rather lose a job to another state than a job to another country...
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:12:55 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 4 15:00:47 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I think my own point got lost in the truth squad airborne assault. The claim is that "last one to leave please turn out the lights" and while that's happening out west, it's no longer happening in our area. Population is on the rise here and in a few other locations. The reason of course is that types of a certain party brought in new business from other places such as AMD, Sabic and a raft of other companies bringing jobs with them. Contrary to the statements in the artical, parts of the state are coming back as you see right where we're living. I grew up in the Bronx and watched the same arguments and now the Bronx is turning around too. Why am I "making it political?" Well ... the other guys ran things for ages and still run things in places like Fort Edward where jobs are still packing up and going away even this week.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:18:13 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Dave on Sat Jan 4 04:32:50 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Both places are empty, were in the hands of republicans since forever and WENT democrat. This isn't a political rah-rah I'm doing here, merely pointing out that old-timey republican towns are dying off and taking the party with them and turning democrat. Town of Bethlehem where I lived (contains Selkirk) had been republican for nearly 200 years. NEVER had democrats. Last supervisor, Hendricks, finished the total collpase of that town. Dems came in, 14 years later Bethlehem is the big time. Plenty of other stories just like that all over the area here. But you don't want to hear that, do you ... so yeah, let's talk about the bear population in Clinton county.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:23:47 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 10:10:55 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Well yeah ... we ARE talking specifically about upstate New York here. YMMV. And LOL at Chris ... he'd be the first to be in everybody's face about it if the realities were reversed, and a republican mayor there just got replaced with a democrat too. ;)
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 15:27:18 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 15:23:47 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I'm simply playing Devil's advocate.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:28:44 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 10:18:53 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d And that's exactly it and what I'm saying. Let's take the politics out of it entirely to appease the pinheads. Places in upstate New York where leadership clings to the ancient past and cuts funding repeatedly lose their population, and are doing so at an accelerating rate. Those localities with leadership that say "this ain't working, let's try something new and INVEST in the FUTURE" are doing pretty damned well. Now I guess I don't know what political persuasions embrace that kind of thinking (LOL) but the evidence is clear that the LATTER are thriving while the former continue to die off. I'll leave it there. :)
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:30:05 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jan 4 14:54:09 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Heh.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:36:03 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 15:27:18 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Yep ... no prob, that's what we do here. But that's a surprise for a few. :)
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:37:40 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 4 15:06:37 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Well ... "right to work" as it works, extends no real rights to employees. The way to ensure that jobs don't go offshore though rest with the consumer. Don't buy stuff that isn't made here. ABC News' "Made in America" thing made some serious difference.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 15:40:45 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 15:28:44 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d "Invest in the future" is a term rarely used in American politics. It's a shame because out international competitors don't seem to have any problems doing it. It's sad that London and Paris can open several new rail lines and yet the SAS looks like it will never be built.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 15:44:23 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 15:37:40 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d The problem is that the average American consumer will generally gravitate towards the lowest priced items regardless of where they are made.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:44:43 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 15:40:45 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d And that's exactly the point. MBA mindsets only concern themselves with the current quarter and fiscal year. Investments that might not pay off for a decade will never even get put on the table. THAT is why China is kicking our asses - they have no issues investing gobs of money to get something done 20 years from now. :(
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 15:46:50 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 15:44:43 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d That is also my biggest complaint against "tea party" thinking. The tea party seeks to CUT government investment in the future. It's almost as if China is funding the tea party movement so that they can obtain and retain a competitive advantage ...
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by Charles G* on Sat Jan 4 15:48:12 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 4 15:00:47 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Western and Central New York = Detroit without the wide-scale corruption.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:54:08 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 15:44:23 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d And soon, they'll be getting the lowest price for THEIR work. The downward spiral of that relationship is there for everybody to see and yet ...
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:54:30 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 15:46:50 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d That wouldn't surprise me a bit actually. :(
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 15:55:43 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 4 15:00:47 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d The best thing to do with Detroit is to knock down everything that isn't in downtown and start over. I was there in late October and it's just a sad mess.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 15:57:10 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 4 15:00:47 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d On the casino angle, should be interesting. Then again, Atlantic City isn't doing all that great and with more and more of these things popping up everywhere, the amount of money to be divided between all of them dwindles with the increasing number. Atlantic City at least had a historical past which gave it some panache. "I'm going to Rensselaer?" Not so much. :)
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 15:57:49 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 4 15:54:30 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d The problem is that even when Democrats have good ideas the government still can't implement it very well, Such as Obamacare.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 15:57:57 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 15:55:43 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d As Selkirk would say....years of Democratic Control.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 16:00:01 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jan 4 15:57:57 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I think the key is more of a "years and years of one-party" control. When you end up with a "machine" be it Democrat or Republican ideas stagnate and corruption begins to rule the roost.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 16:01:42 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 15:57:49 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d The problem is many ideas look wonderful on paper....but implementing them in the real work often don't work.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Sat Jan 4 16:02:52 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 16:00:01 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I say that all the time. Either party is extremely dangerous inlf they have all the power. The partisans would disagree.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 16:03:18 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jan 4 16:01:42 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Well some ideas look good on paper but politics screws them up before they are finally agreed to by politicians and then government ineptitude screws them up more when put into practice.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 16:03:39 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 16:00:01 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d THERE ya go! That's the real problem.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by TonyG* on Sat Jan 4 16:04:04 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jan 4 16:02:52 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d You lead to idea stagnation and power hoarding. Neither is good for growth.
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Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Jan 4 16:04:36 2014, in response to Re: More people moving out of upstate NY than moving in, posted by TonyG on Sat Jan 4 15:57:49 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Verizon and United Healthcare made the mess, last I checked neither was a government agency. :)
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