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| (292274) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Apr 14 17:39:38 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 14 15:01:44 2014. And here we have a fine example of a pedestrian that knows how to cross the street. |
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| (292283) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by sloth on Mon Apr 14 20:15:04 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 14 09:26:28 2014. Well, that's something. The lights aren't well timed now, hence why everyone speeds, so maybe this idea isn't as bad as it seems.It's still, in my opinion anyway, too slow. |
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| (292288) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 14 22:59:43 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by sloth on Mon Apr 14 07:45:28 2014. I have regular plates on the vehicle. Most commercial trips have even fewer options.There are about a dozen streets that run parallel between Fulton and Empire Blvd. Your insistence on using only Eastern Pkwy or Atlantic Ave means you are in the company of out of towners. Since I get paid by mileage... In your previous post you were complaining of having to take the BQE because of the extra distance. If you're paid by the mile, take the Belt and go by way of Canarsie. 10 pedestrian deaths in 5 years doesn't sound like all that many. Two people a year? This is seriously being done for 2 people a year? There were also 15 drivers or passengers also killed during the same period. Are they collateral damage to your shaving a few minutes off your by the mile trip? I included only the loss of life collisions. Atlantic Avenue is far more dangerous, if less serious collisions are included. In February 2014, 167 collisions on Atlantic Avenue were reported by NYPD. 37 of them resulted in injuries with 59 people injured and 1 killed. I don't know, if this satisfied your liking for gore. On a practical note, that's nearly 6 collisions per day. Assume each takes about an hour to clear. This means Atlantic Avenue is backed up because of a vehicle accident 25% of the time. If you are looking for a cause for long trips on Atlantic, you need look no further than the number of vehicular accidents. |
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| (292291) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 14 23:34:22 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Apr 14 00:15:36 2014. "Road geometry is not the only determinant as to what safe speed is."So what exactly are you saying? You can build a road with a certain geometry. If that road is in upstate New York a 55 mph speed limit might be appropriate. Take that same road geometry and place it in the middle of Manhattan and it's insane to think 55 mph is appropriate. 40 mph may have been appropriate for Queens Blvd in Rego Park/Elmhurst in the late 1940's or early 1950's. That time expired by the late 1950's and early 1960's when Alexanders and Queens Center were built. They generated too much pedestrian traffic for vehicles to safely navigate Queens Blvd. That's exactly why we need longer amber cycles. The current 3 seconds for 30 mph assumes you immediately hit the brake, and you also have to slam down hard to stop before the crosswalk. The allowed reaction time from seeing a light turn from yellow to green is 1.0 seconds. That's independent of vehicle speed. If a driver cannot react in 1.0 seconds, he is most likely distracted. The braking rate is 10 fps/sec (6.7 mph/sec). That's also independent of vehicular speed. That braking rate will not cause skid marks. The 30 mph stopping distance, including reaction distance) is 146.25 feet. That's 2/3 of a city block. If you have problems stopping in that distance, you are either speeding, distracted or have a slow reaction time. If either of the last two apply, you should compensate by driving slower. That's exactly what they said about he 55 mph speed limit that no one listened to, not even the cops, and it was a big failure. Many have been raised back to 60 and 65 outside of NYC. The double nickel was implemented to reduce fuel use. One unexpected benefit was sharply reduced fatality rates. However, motorists preferred to die more quickly in a collision on a limited access highway. However, pedestrians did not buy into it. They would prefer live a bit longer. Reducing speeds will add 20 to 30 minutes to long trips, not 3 minutes. Just how far do you think trips solely on city streets are? |
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| (292294) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 14 23:47:27 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 14 03:53:16 2014. So fuel consumption can go up 20 and 25 mph are still in the flat range for fuel economy. |
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| (292307) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Apr 15 11:07:34 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 14 23:47:27 2014. What are you saying? The chart clearly shows that 30 is much more efficient than 25 or 20. So rather than admitting that, you are instead saying that 20 and 25 are also pretty good. You are also assuming that is 20 were the limit, everyone would always be going at 20 all the time. In fact, there is no traffic, most will still do 30, and if there is traffic, te average speed will be 10 mph when you include stopping for lights.Anyway you look at it 20 and 25 uses more gas and will cause more air pollution. That will also increase asthma rates and health care costs. |
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| (292317) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by MR RT on Tue Apr 15 14:01:20 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Apr 15 11:07:34 2014. Ban all cars from Brooklyn and bring back the trolley :-) |
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| (292318) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Apr 15 14:30:35 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by MR RT on Tue Apr 15 14:01:20 2014. Sounds good to me, most most of Atlantic Avenue never had a trolley. |
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| (292368) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by merrick1 on Wed Apr 16 21:20:37 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 14 23:34:22 2014. 40 mph may have been appropriate for Queens Blvd in Rego Park/Elmhurst in the late 1940's or early 1950's. That time expired by the late 1950's and early 1960's when Alexanders and Queens Center were built. They generated too much pedestrian traffic for vehicles to safely navigate Queens Blvd.The Queens Blvd, Woodhaven Blvd, LIE junction has to be one of the most pedestrian-hostile set-ups in the city. The slip ramps from the boulevards to the LIE are nearly impossible to cross. Cars are moving at 40 mph or faster. At some point someone realized that this was a problem and added a traffic signal at the ramp from Queens Blvd eastbound to the LIE eastbound. But still it's a hardly an enjoyable stroll between the Rego Center Mall and the Queens Center Mall. |
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| (292393) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Apr 17 11:31:08 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 14 23:34:22 2014. Any type of road geometry in Upstate New York takes up considerable space. You could never have that type of road geometry in midtown Manhattan. Even our entrances and exits to highways in NYC are very compressed and unlike anything you have upstate, so what you are saying is just non-sensical. Since we don't have the same road geometry, we can't possibly have the same speeds. We should have speeds based on the road geometry we do have.As far as Queens Blvd is concerned, I am only referring to the main roadway where there shoudn't be any pedestrians except for crossing at the crosswalks at the intersections, some of which could be better designed so all crossing is at right angles, not on diagonals. Of course 40 mph would be way to high for the service roads, but it isn't for the main roadway. Let me understand what you said about braking. You say 3 seconds is ample stopping time for 30 mph without having to slam on the brakes. Then you say it takes 1 second to react. That leaves 2 seconds to brake. Then you say that you brake at the rate of 6.7 mph/ second. If true, then in two seconds, you can only stop from a speed of 13.4 mph. Then in 3 seconds, you can stop from 20.1 mph. In 4 seconds, you still wouldn't be able to stop at 30 mph if it took a one second reaction time to hit the brakes. So how can you also say that 3 seconds for 30 mph is adequate without slamming on the brakes if you are just approaching the signal when it turns amber? People in Brooklyn regularly travel across the entire borough on local streets or a distance of up to 11 miles because we have such few highways. |
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| (292470) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Apr 18 12:26:00 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Apr 17 11:31:08 2014. Let me understand what you said about braking.The ITE/FHWA yellow interval standard is set to the reaction time plus half the braking time (at moderate rate). After processing the green to yellow change, the driver has the option to decide whether he is should stop or has enough time to clear the intersection. This depends on where he is relative to the stop line at the signal changes. If the driver is closer to the stop line than the braking distance and proceeds at the yellow change interval design speed, then the driver will cross the stop line before the yellow signal changes to red. People in Brooklyn regularly travel across the entire borough on local streets or a distance of up to 11 miles because we have such few highways. Not that many do. 93% of all unlinked car trips within NYC that start or end in Brooklyn are less than 11 miles. 73% are less than 5 miles. 51% are under 2 miles. If we include only those trips that start and end in Brooklyn, such trips longer than 11 miles drops to under 1%. The average speed within each percentile increases with distance. This suggests that most Brooklyn drivers do take highways for longer trips. |
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| (292473) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Apr 18 14:27:48 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Apr 18 12:26:00 2014. You didn't answer my question about braking. According to the numbers you provided, at 6.7 mph per second braking rate, with no reaction time you can only brake from 13.4 mph in two seconds. In 3 seconds, you can brake from only 20.1 mph. Yet you state that three seconds is enough time to come to a complete stop from 30 mph. What am I missing? Or are your numbers wrong?Again using your statistics, if 27% of all Brooklyn trips over five miles with at least one end in Brooklyn are made on local streets, I would consider that very significant. The percentage may not sound huge, but multiplying it by the number of trips taken, we have a very considerable number. It's just so easy to bend statistics to show results you want to show by using small percentages instead of real numbers. I could also argue that no one need to be concerned about identity theft because it only affects 3% of the population. Would you agree? |
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| (292474) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 18 15:13:19 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Apr 18 14:27:48 2014. You didn't answer my question about braking.You missed the word "half." Again using your statistics, if 27% of all Brooklyn trips over five miles with at least one end in Brooklyn are made on local streets, I would consider that very significant. The percentage may not sound huge, but multiplying it by the number of trips taken, we have a very considerable number. But 73 percent would be a much more considerable number. How does 27 percent compare with other areas that are considered better served by highways? I could also argue that no one need to be concerned about identity theft because it only affects 3% of the population. Would you agree? Driving on surface streets isn't a crime. |
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| (292476) | |
Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Apr 18 17:36:42 2014, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue speed limit lower to 25 mph, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 18 15:13:19 2014. 73 percent isn't a number. It's a percentage. A low percentage does not negate a large raw number. It is most likely a larger percentage than in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island. Since the north south avenues are greatly used in Manhattan, I wouldn't venture to say that it is higher than in Manhattan. But you also have to realize that virtually every Manhattan avenue, unlike Brooklyn, has synchronized lights all the time, so they in essence act as highways.Yes the number for 73% would be over twice as great as the number for 27%, but why are we comparing the two. The point was that many use local streets for long distances because of the lack of highways in Brooklyn, not that even more use highways for long trips. Also, the fact that driving on surface streets isn't a crime is irrelevant. If a percentage like 3% is significant in one instance, a percentage of 27 in another instance should not automatically be dismissed. Actual numbers are just as important as percentages and I'm tired of people using only one or the other to distort the truth. You should never give a percentage without citing the actual raw number also. |
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