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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Sep 10 22:11:41 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 10 19:28:27 2010. Did the trains always leave from the Manhattan platform? did they use the queens platform at all? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 10 22:12:55 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Sep 10 22:09:17 2010. Which probably put off the NYCT funding even further. But having to absorb the costs of all those new cars back in the late 60's and 70's, MTA wasn't about to spend any more on the subways for a LONG time. The prevailing attitude was that the subways had been more than lavished upon in the 70's ... |
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Posted by Zman179 on Fri Sep 10 23:07:09 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 10 19:28:27 2010. The elevated tracks were severed at the LIRR right-of-way very shortly after the shortening of the line to 121 St. in order to allow for construction of the Archer Av extension. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Sat Sep 11 00:23:17 2010, in response to 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 10 16:10:53 2010. Yeah, I miss the Jamaica Av El. I remember when it was being torn down when I was only 6 or 7 years old. It's ashame that the El was torn down. At the very least, the new subway should have been completed first before the El came down (although I say that the El shouldn't have come down in the first place).I used to ride it when I was a kid. Whenever my mother and I went somewhere on Jamaica Av west of Qns Blvd, I would always ask can we take the train (even though it meant taking the Q49 bus first to Qns Blvd) instead of taking the Q54 bus down Jamaica Av. I also remember the day service was cut back to 121st St. Little did I know back then that would be in preparation for the extension to Archer Av. Koi |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Sep 11 03:18:44 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Sep 10 22:11:41 2010. They used the Queens platform from Nov. 1987 until Dec. 1988 when Archer Av opened. By Nov. 1987 the crossover east of 121 St had been completed so they could relay there. Before that, from May 1985 until Nov. 1987, they had single track operation between 111 and 121 on the Manhattan bound track. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:21:05 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by VictorM on Sat Sep 11 03:18:44 2010. Yeah, I explained the weird configuration before, but I'll do it again here:All eastbound trains switched onto the middle track upon leaving 111th. About 500 feet further east there was a hard rail connection between the middle track and the Manhattan bound track. Manhattan-bound, trains used the hard rail connector to the middle track, then switched over to the Manhattan bound track just before 111th. Crew changes were done at 111th, that now gone tower room was always busy back then. The Jamaica bound track and platform were used for layups only. Due to these limitations, many J trains during rush hour terminated at 111th. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:23:32 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Sep 10 19:53:24 2010. Yeah, that billboard at the end of the structure on Sutphin immediately brings me back to my childhood. I used to stare it with disgust while waiting for the bus. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:23:48 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Sep 10 19:53:24 2010. Yeah, that billboard at the end of the structure on Sutphin immediately brings me back to my childhood. I used to stare at it with disgust while waiting for the bus. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:27:09 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Sat Sep 11 00:23:17 2010. I used to ride it when I was a kid. Whenever my mother and I went somewhere on Jamaica Av west of Qns Blvd, I would always ask can we take the train (even though it meant taking the Q49 bus first to Qns Blvd) instead of taking the Q54 bus down Jamaica Av.It like we have the same childhood memories. Every year when I went to Jamaica to get my eyes checked, we'd take the train to the bus. On the way back, we'd stop at McDonalds that was right there for lunch. I used to watch the trains go in and out of Queens Blvd while I ate my Happy Meal. Simpler times. I also remember the day service was cut back to 121st St. Little did I know back then that would be in preparation for the extension to Archer Av. There was such contempt for riders displaced by the 1985 closure that the Q49 stop that was supposed to serve Metropolitan Ave was actually on Hillside Ave. Dumb. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:36:13 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Zman179 on Fri Sep 10 23:07:09 2010. I remember that well. 123rd to 125th were briefly in total daylight:  This explained why the el structure east of the LIRR was never painted gold in the 1970's. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:40:32 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 10 22:11:26 2010. The structure between Crescent and Cleveland did receive new support pillars and the stations themselves between Crescent and Alabama were rebuilt in the early 1980's. They were literally torn completely out and rebuilt from scratch. Jamaica Ave stations received their rehabs in the late 1980's, but they were more cosmetic. Some of the stations lost whole mezzanines (like Forest Parkway). |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:12:49 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 10 22:11:26 2010. Probably, but only on the 1880's structure over Fulton St, which was built just like the Myrtle El south of Broadway. The Jamaica Ave portion of the el was dual contract sturdy construction. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:14:25 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 10 19:46:55 2010. That is also what was so wasteful about the rebuilt Fulton St el between Franklin and Atlantic Ave, it was identical to the Broadway and Jamaica el stations, and knocked down after only 30 years of use. It's too bad they couldn't incorporate that part into the Fulton subway. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:18:52 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:21:05 2010. Interesting. So the middle track was revenue trackage for a piece?111th made sense as a terminal, as it used to be a terminal for the Lexington El trains so many years earlier, so it had the facilities, even if older. Thankfully, they didn't decide to terminate at 111th, as while 121st St was a ridiculous place for a terminal, 111th was even more in the middle of no where, so at least the people got the 10 extra blocks. The whole thing is so stupid the more I think of it. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:20:03 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Zman179 on Fri Sep 10 23:07:09 2010. Yes, I remember that quite well. I remember that even when Archer opened, you could still see the sad, abandoned rusty Metropolitan Ave station in the distance, as the J turned into Archer. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:22:00 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:36:13 2010. Yes, they never painted it because they knew it was going to be abandoned.By the way, I liked the gold color better on all the els, I have NO IDEA why they went back to the green they once again use. It makes the el so much darker on the street below. It was smart to do the gold/beige color in my opinion. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:24:55 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Sat Sep 11 00:23:17 2010. I also remember the day service was cut back to 121st St. Little did I know back then that would be in preparation for the extension to Archer Av.There was no internet back then, so it was hard to know what was going on. I was quite upset when I heard that the J was cut back further from Queens Blvd to 121st St. It was bad enough it was cut back to Queens Blvd, but I didn't understand the 121st ST either, and thought it was just one more step of getting rid of the whole el. I had an aunt that lived in Jamaica near the Sutphin Blvd station, and we used to take the J all the time to visit her, which became a real hassle when the el was cut to Queens Blvd. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 13:25:05 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:18:52 2010. Yes. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:26:21 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:27:09 2010. Why did they have to close it three years before the subway opened? You would think they could have done that last connection in a matter of a few weeks or even a few months. They had no consideration for riders. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:26:54 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:23:32 2010. You and me both. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 13:27:20 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:22:00 2010. Agreed, I fear the day when they decide to paint the el out here again in that horrid color. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 13:29:15 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:24:55 2010. My mother was somewhat aware of the Archer Ave project and I knew from an early age that the J would once again return to Jamaica. I just didn't know when. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 13:30:56 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:26:21 2010. The connector project was finished more than a year before Archer Ave opened. They were using the structure for layups as early as the fall of '87.IIRC the MTA dragged it's feet on opening the Archer Ave. line and the feds forced them to do it in 1988. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:40:34 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 13:29:15 2010. I remember vistiting my Aunt in Jamaica around 1985, and she did mention that "they were building a 'whole' new subway in Jamaica". I think I remember looking at her like she had two heads, and you have to remember the mindset in the 70's and 80's....the subway was a hellhole, dirty, falling apart, and they were constantly abandoning parts of it, not adding new parts..... That seriously was the mindset, so I probably thought to myself "keep dreaming" when she said that. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 13:47:51 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 13:29:15 2010. The turnouts from the tunnels on 126th St were there since 1983, so you knew something was up. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 11 14:43:24 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:21:05 2010. Maybe a train or 2 in the AM rush had a crew change at 111, but I worked the line weekends when it went to 121 and I can assure you we had a crew room on the north mezzanine at 121 with a small dispatchers office at the south end of 121 on the Manhattan bound side. Those crew changes were done at 121, there is no facility at 111, just that small shanty like tower on the north end of the southbound track. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 14:47:20 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 11 14:43:24 2010. I assumed the changes were made here because I remember that most trains dumped their brakes at 111th (like D trains do at BPB). I guess I was wrong. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 14:56:27 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 11 14:43:24 2010. What did they use, the old abandoned mezzanine at 121st St? I think the whole thing was removed now actually, like they did at Forest Parkway. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 11 15:05:28 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 14:56:27 2010. Yes, on the north end of the station.Sorely missed, it was nicely done. Then we got that hell hole/rat hole of a facility at Parsons/Archer. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 15:16:21 2010, in response to 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 10 16:10:53 2010. It appears that the old Loews Valencia Theater had already become the Tabernacle of Prayer Church, but across the street, the old RKO Alden was still showing movies: In this photo, not the "LIRResque" signage, white with black letters:  I assume this was allowed, I didn't even notice this yesterday!! 
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Posted by El-Train on Sat Sep 11 15:25:39 2010, in response to 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 10 16:10:53 2010. My uncle used to live near 146th for many years, so it was pretty trippy to see that an El used to run above their street and Jamaica Ave. His family had lived there for decades,; wonder how life must've been with the El rumbling on a daily basis. No wonder Jamaica Ave. is so wide. Kinda makes me take all the air and sunlight for granted.What was it about the Archer extension that took so long to open? I read about a Mafia scandal and the stations actually being completed years before opening, but I'd like to hear it in greater detail. |
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Posted by El-Train on Sat Sep 11 15:28:34 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 15:16:21 2010. Didn't the Jamaica Ave. shopping district go to shit anyways around that time? From what I've read, it seems like retailers and neighborhood folk were complaining that the El blighted the neighborhood, but when it was announced that it would close some big retailers dipped anyways, and the RKO Valencia shuttered. Lame. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 11 15:31:13 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by El-Train on Sat Sep 11 15:25:39 2010. MAFIA?The Mothers And Fathers Italian Association? Nothing bad about them. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 15:40:07 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:40:32 2010. So then they did do steel work that could have also been done (on a larger scale) for the Myrt and 3rd ... it was all that steel work that justified killing the other els, and thus Jamaica *could* have gone too using that excuse. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 15:40:53 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 13:12:49 2010. Yep ... so basically, they did there what they said couldn't be done to save the other two els ... that was where I was going with that. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 15:54:54 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 15:40:53 2010. Yes....exactly right. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 15:57:03 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 15:40:07 2010. it was all that steel work that justified killing the other els, and thus Jamaica *could* have gone too using that excuse.But again, only the middle portion of the Jamaica line, over Fulton St from Alabama Ave to Cypress Hills, that was 1880's el structure, just like Myrtle. The Jamaica Ave el from Cypress Hills to the end was dual conracts sturdy construction....but of course, using the argument, if the middle section went, the end would have been gone too, as it wouldn't have been connected to anything. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 16:00:16 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by El-Train on Sat Sep 11 15:28:34 2010. The Jamaica Ave business district was in trouble even before the el closed, but taking it's vital link bringing people to the area made it plunge even faster. Gone was all that foot traffic. They didn't consider all the foot traffic taken away when the el went....right down from the people that came specifically to Jamaica, but also people going to work walking to their train station....stopping for their coffee and donut, buying supplies for work, or on the way back, buying those cigarettes, buying a drink, buying a pair of shoes as they walked passed a shoe store, and so forth. Doesn't sound like much, but add that up by thousands. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 16:05:57 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 15:57:03 2010. That was my point ... at least they found the money to fix THAT one. Had they fixed the other two, they'd be MIGHTY handy right now. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Sep 11 16:07:49 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 16:00:16 2010. indeed, that is exactly what transit stimulates. When I was a salesman for Random House's Vintage and Modern Library in the late 60s, almost all of my accounts were within a couple blocks of a subway station. I did all of my work by transit. |
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Posted by Gene B. on Sat Sep 11 16:22:46 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 10 18:16:37 2010. I agree that it was real dumb to remove the Bronx Third Ave. El for the reasons you mentioned and because it left a big void between the White Plains Road line and the Concourse line. If you want to get to Fordham U. or Arthur Ave., for instance,you have to take Metro North and not the subways. The Jamaica El should have been left intact until the subway was ready to open, but at least there is no void left. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 16:35:13 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 16:05:57 2010. Yup, it's a travesty. |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Sat Sep 11 16:53:56 2010, in response to 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 10 16:10:53 2010. " In between, Jamaica went to hell, and has never fully recovered. Dumb, DUMB!"If you understand what was really happening at the time....you'd say.....oh..now I get it...... Jamaica was going through the same economic downturn as Hempstead, LI. But locations had major anchor stores for many years. Both were the place to be to shop for alot of different things. Then THEY CAME. As more and more shoppers had cars, they become MOBILE. Then the MALLS came and they were able to lure shoppers away from these "centers of shopping." The anchors stores could not complete. Parking was limited. Malls has alot of parking to offer shoppers. So down went Jamaica and down went Hempstead. In an effort to reverse course, the city deceided to chop down part of the Jamaica EL so that "new light" could be shed onto the declining business area. Now in 2010, everything has changed. Anchor stores are coming back into the Parson Blvd/Jamaica Ave area. I've seen more new apartment buildings being built in the area. If you go further down Jamaica Ave. you'll see new multi-family structures where there never was in the past. Times change and demographics change as well. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 17:05:01 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Sep 11 16:35:13 2010. Just a continuation of the mess of bad economies. And I fully expect another round just like back when Nixon's war went unfunded and tax cuts were handed out instead of transit money. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 11 17:07:42 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Gene B. on Sat Sep 11 16:22:46 2010. While the teardown of the 3rd Avenue el killed off the Bronx hub for good and wreaked serious other damage in the Bronx, it seems as though losing the Myrt might have done even more damage in Brooklyn. Perhaps some day, both areas can finally get a proper subway. |
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Posted by D to E to Jamaica on Sat Sep 11 18:25:47 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by streetcarman1 on Sat Sep 11 16:53:56 2010. If you understand what was really happening at the time....you'd say.....oh..now I get it......Jamaica was going through the same economic downturn as Hempstead, LI. But locations had major anchor stores for many years. Both were the place to be to shop for alot of different things. Then THEY CAME. As more and more shoppers had cars, they become MOBILE. Then the MALLS came and they were able to lure shoppers away from these "centers of shopping." The anchors stores could not complete. Parking was limited. Malls has alot of parking to offer shoppers. So down went Jamaica and down went Hempstead. In an effort to reverse course, the city deceided to chop down part of the Jamaica EL so that "new light" could be shed onto the declining business area. Now in 2010, everything has changed. Anchor stores are coming back into the Parson Blvd/Jamaica Ave area. I've seen more new apartment buildings being built in the area. If you go further down Jamaica Ave. you'll see new multi-family structures where there never was in the past. Times change and demographics change as well. True. What surprises me on any given weekend you can see out of town buses laid up on Merrick Blvd. near the bus terminal letting out people to shop! During the pre-Z J train skip-stop service how could you tell which train was which? I never saw a train with an "A" or "B" sign. If anyone have pics of that, please post them, or point me in the right direction. |
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Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sat Sep 11 19:23:29 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:36:13 2010. What year were these pjotos taken? Approx? Saddening to see.:0( |
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Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sat Sep 11 19:23:50 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 12:36:13 2010. What year were these photos taken? Approx? Saddening to see.:0( |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 19:39:36 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 11 15:05:28 2010. Was it better than this? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 11 19:40:46 2010, in response to Re: 9/10/77, posted by El-Train on Sat Sep 11 15:25:39 2010. Not mafia, but a cement scandal from a tainted contractor who had close ties to Al D'Amato. |
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