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| (859300) | |
2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:19:45 2009 I took some pictures on Saturday during the rainy day:The end of the line was at West Orange at Main Street by the St. Marks Church, which is basically now a lot for a lumber yard and an appliance store:   Looking towards the West Orange station from the Llewellyn station Park Ave. You can see St. Mark Church in the distance.  At the Llewellyn Station, on the far left is a Delta gas station:  Orange station area by Alden Place and Alden Street:  Some more pictures of the Orange ROW:     The ROW by Bloomfield Ave and the ROW heading to Hartz Mountain:   Crossing Bloomfield Ave at Bloomfield and you can see the Grove Street station in the distance:  |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 14:23:35 2009, in response to 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:19:45 2009. Cool. I heard the terminal for this line was only a few hundred feet from the current M&E station in Orange, and that's what eventually killed passanger service.Maybe we could see light rail on it, someday. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:40:15 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 14:23:35 2009. "Cool. I heard the terminal for this line was only a few hundred feet from the current M&E station in Orange, and that's what eventually killed passanger service."Yes...the Erie Orange Branch does cross over the M&E line in Orange, but from a news clipping when the line was closed in the 1950s, it attributed the closing due to low ridership as more people began using the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels and the George Washington Bridge. As far as Light Rail....I wish that as well...but most of the ROW is now in the hands of private ownership as you can see. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 14:47:51 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:40:15 2009. Too bad, the branch is ideal for light rail conversion, the area it serves is mostly middle-lower income which could use cheaper rapid transit, over the more expensive, less frequent commuter rail. |
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| (859314) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by JohnnyMints on Mon Nov 16 15:02:36 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 14:47:51 2009. Ironic how the line that passes right by Llewellyn Park is mostly paved over, being the LP is one of America's first railroad suburbs. Anyway, I don't know how well it would work as a light rail line as it takes a very indirect route to Newark. Now if it, instead of running along the subway route to Newark, it continued along the old Boonton Line toward Hoboken and the Hudson Waterfront, that may be a very different story.But hell, I'll settle for another extension of the Newark |
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| (859318) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Nov 16 15:06:11 2009, in response to 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:19:45 2009. Nice retracement work. Thanks.your pal, Fred |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 15:17:26 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Fred G on Mon Nov 16 15:06:11 2009. Here's an in-depth retracement of the branch, from Orange to the junction with the NY&GL in Forest Hill. |
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| (859325) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 15:39:24 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by JohnnyMints on Mon Nov 16 15:02:36 2009. "Ironic how the line that passes right by Llewellyn Park is mostly paved over, being the LP is one of America's first railroad suburbs."The station was not near the entrance....more like way down the block on Park Ave. Here are some pictures from away back then:  
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| (859358) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Mon Nov 16 16:28:43 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:40:15 2009. "Yes...the Erie Orange Branch does cross over the M&E line in Orange"The former Erie Orange Branch crossed over the former DL&W Montclair Branch at Watsessing Jct. The Erie West Orange Station, end of the line, never reached the M&E West Orange station. BTW, I sold myself the last Orange Branch ticket, from Arlington to West Orange, when I was working at Arlington station. by that time, passengers transferred from a train to a bus at Forest Hill. Lee |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 16:42:21 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by ebtmikado on Mon Nov 16 16:28:43 2009. There is no West Orange M&E station. I was referring to the Orange station, between Brick Church and Highland Ave. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Mon Nov 16 16:45:23 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 16:42:21 2009. My apologies. The M&E station is Orange. |
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| (859383) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 17:05:03 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by ebtmikado on Mon Nov 16 16:28:43 2009. Why was the Forest Hill station closed down and not kept open with the rest of the stations on the Greenlake line? |
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| (859409) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Mon Nov 16 18:31:59 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 17:05:03 2009. It was only about .3 miles west or North Newark. |
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| (859413) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Nov 16 18:45:23 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 14:47:51 2009. Too badYou could, gasp, buy the property from the owners or use eminent domain. the branch is ideal for light rail conversion As a bored exercise, I'd argue for a stadtbahn line extending from Grove Street via the old Orange Branch and continuing westward with a deep bore under the Watchung Mountains eventually joining I-280 outside of Prospect Avenue in West Orange, and following the expressway westward until reaching the Morristown and Erie ROW. Upon the ROW, the service would continue toward Morristown... Of course, in conjunction, I would want ARC and a Downtown tunnel for the Hoboken division lines, which would free up PATH for stadtbahn conversion... |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 20:29:25 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by ebtmikado on Mon Nov 16 18:31:59 2009. But even the North Newark station was not kept open at all. |
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| (859667) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 03:52:50 2009, in response to 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:19:45 2009. Nice job.The bus turnaround on Main Street in Orange for route 24 (not the 44 anymore) is still called "Erie Loop". I used to ride the 94 to Bloomfield from Roselle; I remember the grade crossing across Prospect Street when it was in a more decrepit condition roadwise, too. I sometimes wonder if this line would have survived if it had been connected to the Morristown Line in Orange, too . . . |
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| (859668) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 03:57:44 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Nov 16 18:45:23 2009. Arrgh, you had to say "Stadtbahn" again. Scheissebahn, unless it's a genuine "tram-train" that doesn't need FRA waivers and is operated by NJTR and not scab companies.We've needed a downtown full-size station in Manhattan for ages. PATH stays as it is, too. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Nov 17 05:08:29 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 16 15:17:26 2009. Wow, that guy is thorough.your pal, Fred |
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| (859695) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 07:25:45 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 20:29:25 2009. North Newark was open until the late 80s. |
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| (859698) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Nov 17 07:35:42 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Fred G on Tue Nov 17 05:08:29 2009. Yes...in a way...I wanted to show the "updated chapter" taken in 2009..3 years after...to show the changes...if any. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Nov 17 07:37:45 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 03:52:50 2009. "I sometimes wonder if this line would have survived if it had been connected to the Morristown Line in Orange, too . . . "Hard to say...since it was a single track for most of the way. |
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| (859700) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Nov 17 07:39:23 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 03:52:50 2009. The 1950's was a very rough era for passenger lines as Americans began commuting more and more with cars as highways became readily accessable. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Nov 17 12:55:00 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Nov 17 07:39:23 2009. The 1950's was a very rough era for passenger lines as Americans began commuting more and more with cars as highways became readily accessable.For what it's worth, I-280 wasn't complete in that area until 1972, and didn't connect to the NJTP until 1980 or so... |
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| (859830) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Nov 17 13:16:59 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 03:57:44 2009. Arrgh, you had to say "Stadtbahn" again.I'll keep saying it because it drives you crazy. Besides, HBLR is certainly much closer in design scope to a Stadtbahn system than a streetcar/strassenbahn. unless it's a genuine "tram-train" that doesn't need FRA waivers The problem is that building a vehicle to FRA standards basically eliminates its ability to be a tram. The European tram-trains are just slightly upgraded trams with signaling and voltage equipment. At best due to our freak sized freight, we should probably aim for shared railways with the use of a positive train control system. NJTR and not scab companies Actually, the main reason for the DBOM is that it allows up front construction of the line while NJT is permitted to issue bonds backed by future payments into the Transportation Trust Fund. In other words, the line can be built by the DBOM, and NJT makes payments toward the project over a certain period of time. It's generally believed to be much faster than traditional methods of procurement and construction used by most other transit agencies. One must remember that the costs of the first two phases of HBLR and RiverLINE included the operating costs for the length of the DBOM. Besides, even if the "scab" workers were unionized under say ATU or TWU, you'd be pissed since they'd still pay less than NJTRO... PATH stays as it is, too. Once you build a downtown tunnel, PATH is rather redundant, and should be converted into a means for the light rail network to expand and have direct downtown service if it is possible. |
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| (859840) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 13:28:41 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Nov 17 13:16:59 2009. The problem is that building a vehicle to FRA standards basically eliminates its ability to be a tramNot true. Ever look at the construction standards of most interurban cars? the main reason for the DBOM is that it allows up front construction of the line while NJT is permitted to issue bonds backed by future payments into the Transportation Trust Fund. In other words, the line can be built by the DBOM, and NJT makes payments toward the project over a certain period of time. It's generally believed to be much faster than traditional methods of procurement and construction used by most other transit agencies No . . . it's another way to rape the taxpayer. The DBOM company didn't put up the money for construction, remember. Once you build a downtown tunnel, PATH is rather redundant Is PATH redundant due to going to 33rd Street as well? Are the E, F, N or 7 trains redundant because of the LIRR running parallel into Queens . . . ? Redundancy is good for rails as well as roads. Don't fall into that trap. |
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| (859890) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Nov 17 14:48:23 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 13:28:41 2009. Ever look at the construction standards of most interurban cars?Given that we haven't built one of those since the 1930s, I'd argue that using them as a comparison point is downright foolish. Plus, since they have near no modern crash energy management, I wouldn't want to use them as a base point either. I want a modern tram, not a single car MP-54 style vehicle running in the street. No . . . it's another way to rape the taxpayer. The DBOM company didn't put up the money for construction, remember. Actually, if it wasn't for the frigging DBOM, the system wouldn't exist at all, or we'd be talking about the first phase that opened up in 2005 after we spent years looking for the funding the pay for the system in lieu of talking about the third and fourth phases to 8th Street and Tenafly. As I stated earlier, the DBOM allows New Jersey Transit to make level payments to pay for the construction and operation of the line in order to expedite its construction. Is PATH redundant due to going to 33rd Street as well? Given that with a downtown transit tunnel, riders would prefer to main use of the commuter rail network to go directly to the terminal (and a stop on the Jersey side of the river down Jersey City access), I'd argue that PATH's role should be enhanced for other riders by allowing for direct service via an expanded light rail network serving areas that don't have commuter rail access. This not the elimination of a mode, but the reinforcement of redundancy and promoting regional connectivity. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 15:23:05 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 13:28:41 2009. Is PATH redundant due to going to 33rd Street as well?No, because not everyone using PATH is destined for 33rd St. There are plenty of passengers headed towards SoHo and Chelsea. Most of WFAN's NJ area employees must use PATH to get to their new studios in SoHo. |
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| (860327) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 18 07:27:21 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 15:23:05 2009. That's a good answer. Not the only one, but a good one. |
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| (860342) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Wed Nov 18 07:50:38 2009, in response to 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Nov 16 14:19:45 2009. Nice shots!! In the last pic, is that stretch of track in service?? Given that is a relatively new looking crossing gate, something must come thru there!! |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Wed Nov 18 07:58:23 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 17 03:52:50 2009. It was a circuitous route, and even in the early 50s, one carwas sufficient to carry the passengers. As I grew up on the Greenwood Lake between Arlington and West Arlington stations, that railroad has always been 'mine'. The junction at Forest Hill, where the Orange Branch connected with the Greenwood Lake main, was controlled remotely by a small CTC machine at West Arlington tower. As a teenager, before going to work for the Erie, I spent many days in that tower. Some of the operators permitted me to work the machine and the big levers for the armstrong interlocking at WR itself. The guys would be taken out and shot if something like that were done today. Lee |
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| (860369) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 18 08:57:24 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by ebtmikado on Wed Nov 18 07:58:23 2009. The route itself isn't circuitous. It's far more direct than all of the other road routes to the areas it used to serve. |
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| (860388) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Wed Nov 18 09:55:31 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 18 08:57:24 2009. Erie Orange Branch: Jersey City-Watsessing Jct. 11.1 miles, 49 minutes Jersey City-West Orange 13.4 miles, 61 minutes Add 0.3 miles, 2 minutes from Hoboken DL&W M&E, Montlair Branch: Hoboken-Watsessing Jct. 10.9 miles, 21 minutes Hoboken-Orange 11.5 miles, 23 minutes |
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| (860591) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 18 16:32:05 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by ebtmikado on Wed Nov 18 09:55:31 2009. I said roads. To get to Jersey City from Prospect Street in East Orange by driving is far more indirect than the Orange Branch (fastest way is to take Springdale Avenue to the GSP and thence to I-280). |
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| (860598) | |
Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Wed Nov 18 16:43:05 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 18 16:32:05 2009. In those days, not very many people would want to travel from Prospect Street, East Orange to Pavonia Ave, Jersey City, unless they worked for the Erie....there was nothing else there! And if destined to Manhattan, the Lackawanna would have been at least 30 minutes quicker. And I'm an old Erie employee, always supportive of my home road. But the Orange Branch was never a very heavily-patronized route, due to better options elsewhere. |
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Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Wed Nov 18 16:45:59 2009, in response to Re: 2009 - Erie Orange Branch Photos, posted by ebtmikado on Wed Nov 18 16:43:05 2009. Even when there was passenger service on the line, it was commonin West Arlington Tower to receive the conductor's report from Forest Hill: "3 for the branch", "8 for the branch"....rarely "15 for the branch"....That was the total number of passengers riding on that train for the entire branch. |
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