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Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by GIS Man on Tue Sep 29 09:30:06 2009 Since the Aqueduct Racetrack station has only a Manhattan-bound platform, I wondered about how the specials from the lower level of 42nd St-8th Av. ran. Did they switch across all the tracks and then switch direction towards Manhattan? It must have caused quite a backup on the (HH) shuttles.Thanks, Bob |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by f179dj on Tue Sep 29 11:00:26 2009, in response to Aqueduct Specials, posted by GIS Man on Tue Sep 29 09:30:06 2009. We made a reverse move into the station southbound from Rockaway Blvd. Laid up in Pitkin until the p.m.On the return p.m. trip they would berth two trains on the platform (front half of the first north of the station; rear half of the second south of the station). One would be a super-express; they other ran as an A express or local, depending on the needs of the service. They usually then ran out to CTL. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by R143 on Tue Sep 29 16:39:44 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by f179dj on Tue Sep 29 11:00:26 2009. Did they use that platform on the arrivals though ? |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Sep 29 20:17:11 2009, in response to Aqueduct Specials, posted by GIS Man on Tue Sep 29 09:30:06 2009. The amzing thing is that when Aqueduct Racetrack was rebuilt in the late 1950's, the demand no doubt warranted whatever expense was necessary to build a southbound platform; yet it was not done. I can see why it wouldn't be done today, but back then... |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 30 02:45:58 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by R143 on Tue Sep 29 16:39:44 2009. Yes. The regular A line schedules had a single track operation built into them between Liberty Jct and Howard Bch. That way when the race track was opened, no additional supplements were required and A trains in both directions made the race track stop. Aqueduct specials from 42/ 8 arrived on the N/B (only) racetrack platform and relayed immediately S/O the station to F-4 Tk and either laid up for PM service or changed ends and returned to Pitkin Yd for PM service or in the case of the first two, returned to Q/Pl and changed ends to make the last two S/B specials. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Sep 30 19:41:25 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Sep 29 20:17:11 2009. That is true, however, if and when the VLT (Video Lottery Terminal) palace finally gets built at Aqueduct, I'm sure the demand WILL be there to build a southbound platform at the Aqueduct Racetrack station (and possibly look at converting Aqueduct to a three-platform station with an island platform in the middle that can be used as a terminal for that station once that happen).As for why it wasn't built when Aqueduct opened, there already was the Aqueduct-North Conduit Avenue station that had an exit on the southbound side, close to the track that in those days didn't really make for a need for a platform going towards The Rockaways. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Wed Sep 30 23:13:52 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Sep 30 19:41:25 2009. Speaking of the Aqueduct-North Conduit Avenue station, why is there such a long platform on the n/b side? |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Oct 1 00:04:37 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by daDouce Man on Wed Sep 30 23:13:52 2009. Used to be a LIRR station; that's a holdover from those days.wayne |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Oct 1 00:15:56 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Oct 1 00:04:37 2009. Was there an exit at the n/e of th n/b? |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by f179dj on Thu Oct 1 11:21:43 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Oct 1 00:15:56 2009. Yes. Slide past the fence and you can see where the exits were paved over. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 1 11:24:44 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Sep 29 20:17:11 2009. When was aqueduct actually built? |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 1 11:55:22 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 1 11:24:44 2009. , |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Oct 1 13:09:45 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 1 11:24:44 2009. Sept. 27, 1894 |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 1 13:43:30 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Sep 29 20:17:11 2009. The amzing thing is that when Aqueduct Racetrack was rebuilt in the late 1950's, the demand no doubt warranted whatever expense was necessary to build a southbound platform; yet it was not done.Perhaps the #7 line tunnel would have been breached. Pics were posted here where the one wall on the southbound 42-8 platform was broken through and the #7 line tunnel was right there. Bill Newkirk |
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[Photos] Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 1 13:49:43 2009, in response to Aqueduct Specials, posted by GIS Man on Tue Sep 29 09:30:06 2009. (E) trains or Aqueduct Specials ? Location: 42nd Street/Port Authority Bus Terminal (Lower Level)... Route: E...Car: R38 (St. Louis Car, 1966-1967) 4001... Photo by: Joe Testagrose...Date: 11/27/1970  Location: 42nd Street/Port Authority Bus Terminal (Lower Level) Route: E...Car: R6-1 (Independent Subway) (Pressed Steel, 1936) 1370 Photo by: Joe Testagrose..Date: 11/27/1970 Test run of new R-44's ?  Line: IND 8th Avenue...Location: 42nd Street/Port Authority Bus Terminal (Lower Level)... Car: R44 (St. Louis Car Co., 1971-73). Collection of: David Pirmann Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 1 18:47:57 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Oct 1 13:09:45 2009. thanks jeff,that means that the mineola could have gone there too. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 1 19:45:59 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 1 18:47:57 2009. thanks jeff,that means that the mineola could have gone there too.Metinks the 'Mineola', Augie Belmont's toy train never did see Aqueduct. To this day the so called IRT/LIRR connection at Flatbush Ave. terminal may not have been a reality. There's no proof it existed. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Oct 1 22:20:48 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 1 19:45:59 2009. The IRT/LIRR connection at Flatbush Ave is in plain sight. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Oct 1 22:30:47 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 1 19:45:59 2009. Next time I go to BERA I'll go inside the Mineola and see if I could find an Aqueduct program laying around. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 1 23:13:08 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by daDouce Man on Thu Oct 1 22:20:48 2009. But Art Huencke, who has a huge LIRR site, says no track connection was ever actually made.I tend to think there WAS, as, among other sources, an A&E documentary from 1994 says so. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 1 23:14:10 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 1 13:43:30 2009. I think they're talking about the Aqueduct Race Track Station, not 42/8 LL. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Oct 1 23:37:49 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 1 23:13:08 2009. At the N/E of the N/B local platform. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Thu Oct 1 23:38:49 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 1 23:13:08 2009. A lot of those documentaries use sources like Mr Fischler's books....One would think, though, that a guy like Belmont, who had a PV subway car, and who had lots of pull with the LIRR and Pennsy, and who owned the race track with his name on it, would certainly want to run his private car over his subway, and his friends railroad to HIS race track... Perhaps the connection only existed for a few years, until traffic got so congested on both lines, that it became impossible to entertain even A. Belmont's whims...Mineola itself only ran a few years, correct? |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Oct 2 06:57:01 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Oct 1 22:30:47 2009. Next time I go to BERA I'll go inside the Mineola and see if I could find an Aqueduct program laying around.Probably under a pile of losing tickets that Belmont wagered on ! Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Oct 2 07:08:24 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by daDouce Man on Thu Oct 1 22:20:48 2009. In plain sight doesn't mean the connection was ever made.Learn more about the IRT Connection  Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Oct 2 07:24:18 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Oct 2 07:08:24 2009. In plain sight means the connection was made.Then severed. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Oct 2 07:48:09 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by daDouce Man on Fri Oct 2 07:24:18 2009. In plain sight means the connection was made.Then severed There is no documented or photographic proof the connection was ever made. Did you read Art Huneke's link ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Oct 2 08:20:09 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by daDouce Man on Fri Oct 2 07:24:18 2009. False. There has never been any proff the connection was ever made. The space for a track is there, but no proff track was ever laid, and if it was, no proff that any trains ever used it. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Oct 2 08:20:28 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Oct 2 07:48:09 2009. Thanks for trying to set him straight. But it's no use. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Oct 2 08:21:22 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by daDouce Man on Thu Oct 1 23:37:49 2009. Where it would have been has never been in dispute. You don't seem to understand that. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Oct 2 08:21:36 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Thu Oct 1 23:13:08 2009. What does A&E know? |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 09:47:53 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Oct 2 08:21:36 2009. I agree that TV specials are often wrong. But they quoted a letter someone actually wrote about riding the Mineola to Belmont Racetrack. Additionally, Stan Fischler, who I don't consider an ignorant person, believes the connection was actually made.But Art Huencke, who not only seems to know all there is to know about the LIRR but also worked there for years, feels the connection was never completed. While I'm not 100% sure, I fall on the side that's more in favor of it. Of course, some actual photos and/or a trip log might settle it... |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Oct 2 09:52:59 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 09:47:53 2009. The Mineola *may* have gone to the Belmont race track with out using *that* connection. There *are* other ways to do it.ROAR |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 10:59:08 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 09:47:53 2009. So does Joe Cunningham.he told me several years ago that at flatbush terminal the lirr& irt had a JOINT circuit breaker room,why would 2 seperate RR`S share a joint c/b room? he also said that the lirr had a special 3rd rail section that was only activated when the mineola entered lirr trackage.in the original lirr flatbush tower it showed both rail connections into the IRT.nobody,afaik took a photo of this.the only other towers that shows an extension that is hotly contested is euclid tower showing the pitkin ave ext.to 76st.& crossbay blvd.& pitkin yard tower showing the yard leads to 76st.it has a piece of plastic covering the 2 tracks going to 76st.if anyone has any proof of other towers showing furture extensions on there model boards,please post them.I took Vincent Seyfried to SUNY several years ago to show him robert emory`s 5000 photos of the lirr.I showed him emorys hand written diagrams of flatbush terminal showing the irt/lirr conn.stating that the mineola used the conn.from 1908 to 1916 to go to several race tracks on LI.he then told me that for 50 years he had been wrong about the the track not being installed.I had him write a letter to that effect& it was published in the ERA`S bulletin.seyfried knew emory personally& never thought to ask him about the mineola.talk about a lost oppertunity.EJ Quinby,founder of the ERA&past president of bera wrote about the mineola going to belmont park.the irt book of train movements does not show it going there,IMO I believe that belmont,who was a very private man did not want the public to know his movements.henceforth if he said "don`t put it in the book,who is going to argue with the boss?" bera contacted the Belmont family several years ago about funding to help restore the mineola,their answer was no.he was a womanizer&they wanted no part in preserving his memory in that manner[the mineola being used as his own traveling cathouse]I crawled under the lirr`s structures that were built over the ROW and saw that the IRT roadbed I.E.short ties set in concrete with a center trouth extended into lirr trackage.You will never find a photo of the mineola at belmont park,there are only 4or 5 photos of it stored in 148st.yard. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 10:59:08 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 09:47:53 2009. So does Joe Cunningham.he told me several years ago that at flatbush terminal the lirr& irt had a JOINT circuit breaker room,why would 2 seperate RR`S share a joint c/b room? he also said that the lirr had a special 3rd rail section that was only activated when the mineola entered lirr trackage.in the original lirr flatbush tower it showed both rail connections into the IRT.nobody,afaik took a photo of this.the only other towers that shows an extension that is hotly contested is euclid tower showing the pitkin ave ext.to 76st.& crossbay blvd.& pitkin yard tower showing the yard leads to 76st.it has a piece of plastic covering the 2 tracks going to 76st.if anyone has any proof of other towers showing furture extensions on there model boards,please post them.I took Vincent Seyfried to SUNY several years ago to show him robert emory`s 5000 photos of the lirr.I showed him emorys hand written diagrams of flatbush terminal showing the irt/lirr conn.stating that the mineola used the conn.from 1908 to 1916 to go to several race tracks on LI.he then told me that for 50 years he had been wrong about the the track not being installed.I had him write a letter to that effect& it was published in the ERA`S bulletin.seyfried knew emory personally& never thought to ask him about the mineola.talk about a lost oppertunity.EJ Quinby,founder of the ERA&past president of bera wrote about the mineola going to belmont park.the irt book of train movements does not show it going there,IMO I believe that belmont,who was a very private man did not want the public to know his movements.henceforth if he said "don`t put it in the book,who is going to argue with the boss?" bera contacted the Belmont family several years ago about funding to help restore the mineola,their answer was no.he was a womanizer&they wanted no part in preserving his memory in that manner[the mineola being used as his own traveling cathouse]I crawled under the lirr`s structures that were built over the ROW and saw that the IRT roadbed I.E.short ties set in concrete with a center trouth extended into lirr trackage.You will never find a photo of the mineola at belmont park,there are only 4or 5 photos of it stored in 148st.yard. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 11:22:49 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Oct 2 07:48:09 2009. bill,that photo was in the brooklyn eagle,may 1st.1908 the day the irt officially opened. its flatbush terminal.notice the construction material&boarded up stair case.obviously it was taken well in advance of opening day.Huneke states that the conn.MAY never been put in,not as a fact that it wasn`t put in.nate gerstein has the original opening day booklet.in it,it states that on june 17th.of that year A THRU irt train was to run to jamaica station,lirr.how could a THRU train operate if the track was not put in place? touching all bases,I could not find any newspaper articles on this taking place. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 11:59:01 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Oct 2 09:52:59 2009. Okaayy..please point me in the right direction. Actually, please be explicit. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 12:01:47 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Thu Oct 1 23:38:49 2009. That's basically what I think- given his "pull" at the time, this wouldn't have been hard for him to arrange. But I must conceed that it isn't PROOF. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Fri Oct 2 12:02:35 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by f179dj on Tue Sep 29 11:00:26 2009. What type of equipment did you run them with, Jamaica R38s at the time? |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Oct 2 12:18:32 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 11:22:49 2009. The track connection was never in regular service.Never used on a regular basis. Just a private connection built for August Belmont and his private subway car the Minola. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Oct 2 12:23:36 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 11:59:01 2009. Inquiring minds would like to know Lion. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by f179dj on Fri Oct 2 12:36:39 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by BLE-NIMX on Fri Oct 2 12:02:35 2009. Usually 10's or 40/42's (I did not bother to differentiate between the two), occasionally a 38. Half the time (or more) we reported to Pitkin; sometimes to Jamaica; those were my easy days.) I recall that I was studying for the M/I exam so I would spend time while laid-up going over the equipment we usually did not see in Queens north.At least once I got a 46 out of Jamaica. That I can remember because the south electric portion was slightly damaged when I pre-inspected the train, so I called the Yard Master and told him I wanted another train. I ended up taking that one, after everyone came out and looked at the electric portion. But at least it was established that the portion was damaged before I left the yard with it. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 2 12:42:31 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Sep 30 19:41:25 2009. The MTA should consider replacing both N Conduit and Aqueduct Racetrack stations with a single station with an island platform located in between the two existing, closely spaced stations. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 2 13:40:45 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by f179dj on Fri Oct 2 12:36:39 2009. R-1/9s were used on Aqueduct Specials early on. I remember catching a Manhattan-bound return special on a Saturday once. No headlights on the lead motor and its side route signs were set to S-Special. When we got off at 42nd St. I watched the train as it left and it turned off the express track to Queens. |
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Re: [Photos] Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 2 13:41:49 2009, in response to [Photos] Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 1 13:49:43 2009. Rush hour Ethel trains used the lower level in the early 70s. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by Union Turnpike on Fri Oct 2 14:23:10 2009, in response to Aqueduct Specials, posted by GIS Man on Tue Sep 29 09:30:06 2009. The Aqueduct Specials had a special fare of 50 cents. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 14:30:58 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by daDouce Man on Fri Oct 2 12:18:32 2009. thats correct. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 14:33:25 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 2 12:01:47 2009. true that.fyi,he was a vice president on the lirr also. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 14:43:04 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials., posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 2 14:33:25 2009. signing off for the weekend,see ya`ll monday. |
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Re: Aqueduct Specials |
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Posted by f179dj on Fri Oct 2 15:11:12 2009, in response to Re: Aqueduct Specials, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 2 13:40:45 2009. By the time I got to motors in 1979, R-9's had been relegated to the pick-ups, and some miscellaneous work service. |
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