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| (68577) | |
List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005 I have started on a list of crossovers on the system. Any help would be appreciated; feel free to edit the page directly. |
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| (68584) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by LA Scott on Wed Mar 30 16:01:43 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. Should you have a special notation for 2 track island platforms, which allow travel between directions without need for crossovers/crossunders? |
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| (68585) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Mar 30 16:03:31 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. I gave you some help by adding some answers to you list.I chaged 2 stations on the Astoria Line to Y because the crossover is behind the booth. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (68586) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 16:03:40 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by LA Scott on Wed Mar 30 16:01:43 2005. At first I was marking those N/A, but they really don't make much of a difference except for ease of use and handicapped accessibility. Anyway that information is easily available. |
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| (68587) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 16:06:29 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Mar 30 16:03:31 2005. "I chaged 2 stations on the Astoria Line to Y because the crossover is behind the booth." Meaning it's free, right? nycsubway.org says otherwise, but it may have changed. Thanks again for all who have helped - I wasn't expecting anything so soon. |
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| (68598) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 17:34:43 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. Thanks a lot. I didn't need more stuff to procrastinate with!Do you want to make a special indication for stations that have no entry in one direction? (The only ones I'm aware of are 145 on the 3 and 238 on the 1, with no northbound entry.) |
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| (68600) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 17:36:56 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 17:34:43 2005. Mmm, didn't realize those existed. The Chicago "L" map actually marks that at one station, but the MTA map does no such thing. Feel free to include that in the list if you so desire.I'm assuming southbound exiting is allowed? |
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| (68603) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Mar 30 18:10:58 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. Kind of funny to see you include Park Place and Franklin Ave. on the Franklin Shuttle. One station, one track. But a very useful list. |
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| (68607) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 18:18:15 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 17:36:56 2005. Yes, although southbound exiting at 145 is a pain: since only the first five cars platform at that station, you need to be in the front section of the train to exit, but the only entrance at 148 (which is oriented east-west along 149, but that's a different topic) is at the far rear end of the train. Now that the last of the R-62A singles have departed, it is no longer possible on the 3 to walk past the C/R's position on the train, so if you're going from 148 to 145, it's better to let a train go if you can't run down the platform past the C/R in time.That said, I doubt that's a common trip. It's probably most common among those who were trying to get to 145 northbound but were in the rear section. Well, now they're in the front! |
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| (68609) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 18:20:55 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SLRT on Wed Mar 30 18:10:58 2005. South Ferry also. (Well, there's another platform and another track, but they're not accessible to the public.) |
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| (68633) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 30 19:31:29 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. I think a better list would be one of Interlockings on the NYC Subway. With each you can include a list of switches and turnouts. |
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| (68634) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 30 19:33:41 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Mar 30 19:31:29 2005. Ack, sorry, I was confused by your term "crossover". I generally ask the question if there is or isn't a mezinine level.You should classify the stations to either being Island, Penusulas or having a mezzinine. |
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| (68664) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 21:14:15 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. I've added these to my subway map (public domain; do what you want with it). |
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| (68667) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 21:24:21 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 21:14:15 2005. Some corrections/comments (do what you want with them):Both historically and operationally, the F crosses from IND territory to BMT territory between Church and Ditmas. Only the BMT part of the line is called the Culver -- the IND section south of Bergen is sometimes called the South Brooklyn line (and is sometimes treated as part of the Crosstown line, although I don't think that's very accurate). Historically, the A crosses from IND territory to BMT territory at Grant Avenue (which was built as part of the connection), and the Rockaway branches were originally LIRR. They're treated as IND today, though. Also, just to clarify, the Sea Beach line is open south of 86th Street. Regularly scheduled N trains don't run through to Stillwell in service because Stillwell is short one platform until May, but the tracks are often used for GO's, reroutes, light moves, etc. |
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| (68670) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 21:29:48 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 21:14:15 2005. Also, the V is omitted from your list of IND lines.The 63rd Street connection (which obviously postdates unification) connects to both the IND and the BMT at the Manhattan end, although the latter isn't currently used in regularly scheduled service. |
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| (68685) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 21:47:52 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 21:24:21 2005. The IND part is now being called the Culver at least to Bergen Street (page 43 on this PDF, and page 140 clearly puts Smith-9th on it). The map is mainly intended to show service patterns, and thus isn't fully accurate about where each section originated. Thanks for the catch on the V - that should be in the next update. |
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| (68700) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 22:18:57 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 21:47:52 2005. That PDF is inaccurate. (After all, its purpose isn't to identify the proper names of the lines.) |
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| (68703) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Mar 30 22:27:42 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 22:18:57 2005. Actually, the PDF is legally accurate. The MTA has adopted "Culver Line" as the line name at least from Bergen Street south, as SPUI said, for identification and contract purposes. But you are historically correct. |
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| (68714) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Wed Mar 30 22:45:01 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 21:24:21 2005. Both historically and operationally, the F crosses from IND territory to BMT territory between Church and Ditmas. Only the BMT part of the line is called the Culver -- the IND section south of Bergen is sometimes called the South Brooklyn line (and is sometimes treated as part of the Crosstown line, although I don't think that's very accurate).Just to add some confusion to the scenario there are red signs posted at the ends of the platforms on the subway portions of the IND South Brooklyn Line. These signs identify the line and track layout and the location of the nearest emergency exit. On these signs the line is refered to as the 6 Avenue Line. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (68717) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Mar 30 22:48:14 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 21:14:15 2005. Nice map.Some comments: -The J/Z are the ones that are peak-direction only skip-stop, not the 1/9. -You're missing the 5 to Brooklyn on the mini-IRT map. -The A to Rockaway Pk is peak-direction only. -Hoyt St/Fulton Mall lacks a free crossover. 21 St, Roosevelt Island, Lex/63 all have crossovers. (36 St/QB also has one IINM but not 100% sure.) -Alabama Ave. is an express stop on the J/Z. -Some of the station names are too big. Otherwise, interesting format. Maybe the colors (especially the BMT green) should be a little darker. |
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| (68718) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 22:51:20 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Mar 30 22:48:14 2005. Good thing you're not 100% sure, because you're 100% wrong. Even with an unlimited, it's a pain to cross over there (at street level). |
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| (68720) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Mar 30 22:56:09 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 22:51:20 2005. So where the heck do those two stairs at the rear of the Jamaica-bound platform go? Some FUBAR street-level entrance? |
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| (68728) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Mar 30 23:08:17 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Mar 30 22:48:14 2005. 36th street/QB has no crossover. However this station is only one of 2 stations that have seperate fare controls with one side at platform level while the opposite side has a mezzanine. (Winthrop/IRT is the other such station). |
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| (68733) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 23:24:02 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Mar 30 22:56:09 2005. Yes. The platforms are one level below the street. |
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| (68735) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 23:26:54 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Mar 30 23:08:17 2005. Where is there a mezzanine? I've exited from both sides directly to street level. Is there a mezzanine at the front end of the northbound plat? |
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| (68736) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Mar 30 23:30:54 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 23:26:54 2005. On the southbound side, you have to in up half a level before going though the HEET and only then you have to go up the other half level. thats a mezzanine no matter how you look at it. |
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| (68755) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:17:08 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Mar 30 22:48:14 2005. -The J/Z are the ones that are peak-direction only skip-stop, not the 1/9.Oops, I knew that. Typo. -You're missing the 5 to Brooklyn on the mini-IRT map. That's a rush-hour only service; I decided to show midday services there (except where rush-hour services are diamonds). Maybe I'll show rush-hour only services with smaller symbols. -The A to Rockaway Pk is peak-direction only. Thanks - didn't realize that. -Hoyt St/Fulton Mall lacks a free crossover. 21 St, Roosevelt Island, Lex/63 all have crossovers. (36 St/QB also has one IINM but not 100% sure.) Meh, I forgot to show crossovers on the 63rd Street Line. -Alabama Ave. is an express stop on the J/Z. What do you mean by that? Isn't it a J stop in the skip-stop pattern? |
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| (68758) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:19:38 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by RedbirdR33 on Wed Mar 30 22:45:01 2005. I've seen the following names used for that line:Brooklyn Line Smith Street Line Church Avenue Line South Brooklyn Line Prospect Park Line (probably the express tracks under Prospect Park) and of course Culver Line. |
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| (68768) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Metropod on Thu Mar 31 00:31:06 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. i don't think that that aquaduct could be listed as "without a crossover/under to the oposite direction" as there is no oposit direction |
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| (68771) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:34:29 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Metropod on Thu Mar 31 00:31:06 2005. Thus it has no crossover to the opposite direction, by virtue of no opposite direction existing. |
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| (68772) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Metropod on Thu Mar 31 00:37:59 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:34:29 2005. you have too much free time |
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| (68790) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Mar 31 03:11:13 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 17:34:43 2005. there is entry at these stations for persons with the right key |
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| (68791) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Mar 31 03:11:52 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Mar 30 18:20:55 2005. not legally anyway |
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| (68792) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Mar 31 03:14:44 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:19:38 2005. how many lines can one do? |
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| (68793) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Mar 31 03:16:34 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Mar 30 23:30:54 2005. and quite often it's a MESSanine |
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Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Mar 31 03:19:34 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:34:29 2005. if franklin ave (shuttle) can be listed then aqueduct can be listed for the same reasonwhen racetrack specials were running, s/b service would wrong-rail to aqueduct to drop people off |
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| (68799) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Fytton on Thu Mar 31 03:51:27 2005, in response to List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Wed Mar 30 15:34:57 2005. It would be very useful to tourists if NYCT were to publish a list like this. I have been caught by 'one side only' entrances to the subway (and I am a raifan), because my 'home' subway system (London) always has access to all platforms from all entrances, and one can always turn back the other way inside fare control. I am sure other foreigners are more likely than me to be caught this way.Even better would be to publicise the list of stations where you *can't* turn back. |
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| (68816) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:28:34 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:17:08 2005. All trains stop at Alabama, regardless of what you may see on the map. |
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| (68817) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:30:06 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 00:19:38 2005. Use what you like, but Culver seems a bit strange to me.Really, it's not often that anybody uses a line name for that section at all. If you simply fail to label it until south of Ditmas, nobody will complain. |
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| (68818) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:30:49 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by monorail on Thu Mar 31 03:19:34 2005. That was then, this is now. Southbound A trains do not stop at Aqueduct Racetrack. |
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Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:32:18 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by monorail on Thu Mar 31 03:11:52 2005. I did see somebody sleeping on a 5 train at South Ferry the other day. |
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| (68824) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:56:00 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Fytton on Thu Mar 31 03:51:27 2005. Read the signs! The signs at the entrances list whatever restrictions you need to know. |
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| (68841) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Alex L. on Thu Mar 31 08:27:43 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by RedbirdR33 on Wed Mar 30 22:45:01 2005. Just to add some confusion to the scenario there are red signs posted at the ends of the platforms on the subway portions of the IND South Brooklyn Line. These signs identify the line and track layout and the location of the nearest emergency exit. On these signs the line is refered to as the 6 Avenue Line.And we all know those are not the most accurate signs in the system - unless you've come up with some way of accounting for the one at 49/B'way being in the IND? |
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| (68843) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Fytton on Thu Mar 31 08:35:58 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:56:00 2005. "Read the signs! The signs at the entrances list whatever restrictions you need to know"That's true. But tourists from out of town, or out of the country, don not necessarily read these signs in every detail, and may not understand their implications anyway. You're a New Yorker and used to the subway. Visitors are not. A clear sign saying "Do not enter here if you are heading downtown" or some such could be quite helpful. A sign on the uptown platform saying "You cannot cross to the downtown platform at this station - continue to XXX station if you need to croreverse direction" might be some help too. |
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| (68845) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Howard Fein on Thu Mar 31 09:10:32 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:56:00 2005. Yes, at the entrances. Determining reverse movements from within the system when you've just gotten off a train can be a different story.Most experienced NYC subway riders know that if there's fare control on platform level, i.e. no mezzanine, you can't reverse direction without paying another fare- unless you're carrying an Unlimited, of course. But there are a few stations with complete mezzanines and fare control on a separate level from the platform where you STILL can't turn around without exiting the system- even if just for a few seconds. I fell for this one time when I tried to turn around at 33rd on the 7, which appears to be a typical mezzanined el station. But the fare controls are set up in such a way that you exit the system as soon as you reach the bottom of the stairs from the platform. This is known as Dual Fare Control. Most mezzanines- both above and below ground- are located mostly or entirely within fare control. In some cases you may be allowed to turn around within fare control only at one extremity or the other, such as at Elmhurst and Grand on the R. Since that time, 33rd and 46th do allow reversal of direction within fare control, but 40th still doesn't. It looks like the fare controls on mezzanines of the Astoria el 'local' stops were altered to allow free reversal by a narrow passageway behind the booths. At first glance it looks like you can't do it. Briarwood/Van Wyck on the F has had Dual Fare Control since a police precinct now takes up the area of the mezzanine where such reversals would take place. There are signs at the bottom of the stairs from the platforms clearly stating this. No such signs exist at 75th Avenue, which has a full-length IND mezzanine, the center of which is within fare control and the peripheries outside fare control for the entire length. So you can't turn around there either. The same arrangement exists at 163rd on the C. Remember when the street level fare control at 72nd/Broadway was under renovation? Between roughly '98 and '02, there was Dual Fare Control. This caused endless confusion for people who assumed it was a typical four-track two-platform express stop with easy reversal of direction. It was made worse when a weekend GO had only express service one way or the other through 72nd. Some conductors didn't help matters by telling passengers to transfer at 72nd for bypassed stops. Another common trap occurs at 1st Avenue on the L where there's a small mezzanine a few steps up from platform level but still below street level. At least the NYC subway system allows free reversal at all terminals. PATH doesn't at Newark, nor does the MFL at 69th. On a trip to Boston in May '88, I discovered the same held true at the end of the Blue Line at Wonderland and the Red Line at Mattapan. A few months after that, I learned that MBTA introduced some kind of Unlimited arrangement. I was NOT happy. |
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| (68846) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by SPUI on Thu Mar 31 09:22:59 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 06:28:34 2005. And what's seen on the service info pages on the MTA site? And the individual schedules online? Is there a reason for this inconsistency? Was it originally a J-only stop?Strangely, the J/Z skip stops don't match at all to the A/B (15/14, then QJ/JJ, then QJ/KK, then simply two variants of the J) skip stops insituted in 1959. Was there a time after 1976 when there was no skip-stop service? |
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| (68851) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 09:42:47 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Fytton on Thu Mar 31 08:35:58 2005. Agreed. The signs are generally clear and explicit, but they violate an assumption that many visitors have, so they should probably be more prominent. |
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| (68853) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Mar 31 09:49:36 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Howard Fein on Thu Mar 31 09:10:32 2005. I never understood why the designated northbound-to-southbound transfer point was 79th rather than 72nd. Neither one had a crossover, but the transfer at 72nd could have been done without GO transfers and without requiring passengers to cross a busy street. And for while, the designated southbound-to-northbound transfer point was 59th, even though 66th has a crossunder.One weekend in 2001 or 2002, northbound trains ran express from 72nd to 96th and southbound trains ran express from 72nd to Times Square. The service advisories stated that passengers trying to reach those trains from local stops should backtrack at 66th (or 59th) and 79th, respectively. When the 1 is cut back to 215th for a GO, there is no way to reverse direction without paying again. If you realize that you're going to miss your appointment in the Bronx because of the shuttle bus, so you give up and go back home, you still have to pay a second fare for your return trip. |
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| (68863) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Thu Mar 31 10:43:18 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Mar 30 22:48:14 2005. Nice Map. Oriented to true north, I see.Another thing. The E to 179 Street and the Rockaway Park A should both be listed as 1a. There probably should be a 3a and service note also. 3a Evenings until 21:00 only. |
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| (68866) | |
Re: List of crossovers/unders |
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Posted by Metropod on Thu Mar 31 10:49:43 2005, in response to Re: List of crossovers/unders, posted by Alex L. on Thu Mar 31 08:27:43 2005. that's not just at IND stations, they are in most (if not all) subway stations. they don't need them on el/open cut/surface since you could use a lattter in the frist two and just find a hole in the fence for the third |
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