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Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Sat May 17 23:15:29 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 21:53:48 2008. They also had brakes. R38s had compesition shoes way early before GOH |
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| (618427) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 23:19:30 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 23:08:06 2008. Myvarious careers included selling Vintage & Modern Library in Bklyn, Bx SI and odd corners of Manhattan. So I was all over by transit--there were very few bookstores any serious distance off transit routes. |
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| (618429) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 23:20:59 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by BLE-NIMX on Sat May 17 23:15:29 2008. Worked the D in 1970 and 1971 ... if it wasn't an arnine, it was a 32. And man ... I *perfected* the "brick wall stop" ... heh. |
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| (618432) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 23:23:49 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 23:19:30 2008. In my case, My first job was out at Beverley and Nostrand, worked lower Manhattan, Queens and Crooklyn ... never had a job in my own borough. Then I did something *really* stupid ... after MTA, went to work in radio ... got better. :) |
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| (618484) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun May 18 00:38:21 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by RonInBayside on Sat May 17 21:04:58 2008. Yes, except that's not how the jet's controls are arranged.The term "cineston" is a misnomer. That was a specific trademarked model name. I believe GE was the manufacturer, and the controller came out in the 1930s. Any single-handle rotary power/brake controller became generically known as a "cineston" just like a photcopier is a "Xerox machine" and that transparent tape is called "Scotch tape" |
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| (618488) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun May 18 00:43:09 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by David on Fri May 16 23:13:00 2008. It may have had a different name, but both car classes had thesame functional component, which reduced brake cylinder pressure when wheel slide was detected. If you recall, a wiring error on the R46 cars, when the radio brackets were changed from the original R46 radios the the standard B division radios, caused battery voltage to be applied to the decelostat circuit when the mike was keyed up, leading to loss of braking and a bulletin which was in effect for about a year requiring that motormen not transmit on the radio unless the train was stopped :) |
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| (618505) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun May 18 01:13:03 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Jeff H. on Sun May 18 00:38:21 2008. Thank you. |
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| (618507) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 01:13:33 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Jeff H. on Sun May 18 00:43:09 2008. Is *THAT* why?!?!?! I remember hearing that after I left the authority and couldn't for the life of me figure out why! It just conjured up the old "Green Acres" joke of "Lisa, you CANNOT plug in a 3, a 4 and a 6 at the same time!" :) |
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| (618547) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun May 18 01:56:00 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:01:26 2008. pwn3d |
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| (618556) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 02:07:50 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun May 18 01:56:00 2008. ? |
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| (618572) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun May 18 03:31:51 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Jeff H. on Sun May 18 00:43:09 2008. It was only a 10-20 PSI drop. I remember 3000Mfd. on the B+ of the FL85 package did the trick but I don't remember if that was the final fix. |
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| (618581) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 05:13:14 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Train Dude on Sun May 18 03:31:51 2008. Yow! Respecting the value, if it took THAT much, that was some SERIOUS key-up, and BAD chit! :(You and I *BOTH* know what *that* fix means to ANY B+ line. Yow! :( |
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| (618847) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 18:55:23 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 21:49:38 2008. I had a good lively train for that one. By the way it was called the AA back in 1969. Also although longer trains usually brake better, this was only a 4 car train which actually seems to have slightly lower dwell times in stations than longer trains. |
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| (618854) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:02:15 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by BLE-NIMX on Sat May 17 23:15:29 2008. Yes, but back in 1969, they still had steel shoes. The problem was that the R-38s were the first cars on TA property and perhaps anywhere that had the updated version of the SMEE brakes which WABCO called RT-2 and a new model brake valve ME-43 instead of the ME-42B. The "improved" braking system left a lot to be desired in terms of operation and it was extremely difficult to get a smooth stop on an R-38. The train would eithe roll or else if the M/M attempted to grab as little as an extra 5 psi of straight air, the train would tend to stonewall. The R-40s and 42s which had the same brake package were a bit of an improvement in that it was easier to make a smooth stop but the last really good cars on the system, and probably the best MU cars of their generation anywhere, were the pre GOH R-32s. |
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| (618855) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:04:44 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 21:52:33 2008. Woudn't the end sign and marker light area have been a little more sculptured like the R-38? |
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| (618858) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:07:06 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 23:07:05 2008. The on train fare collections only took place after 900 PM (2100 hours in 24 hr terminology) all 7 days. |
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| (618872) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 19:21:13 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:04:44 2008. As I recall, yes ... same as the 38's there as well. |
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| (618873) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:21:46 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Jeff H. on Sun May 18 00:38:21 2008. I believe that the term "Cineston" is copyrigted to WABCO even though the BMT Bluebird, which was equipped with the first controller of this type, had a similar controller manufactured by GE. I have the matching controller from 8000 to the one you have at Branford, by the way. Interestingly enough, even though the Bluebird's controllers were manufactured by GE, I have an instruction manual from WABCO for an "electro - pneumatic brake system for articulated rapid transit cars with cineston controller" which from all indications seems to be for the Bluebird. I haven't heard of any other articulated rapid transit cars using an electro -pneumatic PCC type of brake system other than the Bluebird since the Chicago artics were all electric. Also the description of the brake system having spring applied and air released brake shoes in the WABCO book is consistent with the type of braking system on the Bluebird. It could be possible that there was some collaboration between the manufacturers at the time that allowed for the mixing of parts. Jim Greller's book on BMT equipment also seems to indicate that the controllers on 8000 were slightly different from those on the later units and that these were changed to match those on the later units. The reason for that might have been that although 8000 as delivered lacked H type drawheads, the unit apparently received them at some point during its service history since the book has a photo of 8000 in CIYd and it clearly has an H drawhead. The only question that I have is which controllers from 8000 do we have, the originals or the replacements? |
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| (618895) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:39:58 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 19:21:13 2008. OK, thanks. |
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| (618910) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Eric B on Sun May 18 20:08:54 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:02:15 2008. Didn't the PATH cars have the same brake package? (at least judging from the "Darth Vader" sound). |
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| (618913) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 20:11:52 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Eric B on Sun May 18 20:08:54 2008. That's correct. The only difference at that point was that the PA-1s still had an ME-42B brake valve instead of the newer ME-43. |
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| (619194) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Mon May 19 03:36:45 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:21:46 2008. I thnk Russ Jackson would know about the controllers |
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| (619195) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by 5119 on Mon May 19 05:14:44 2008, in response to Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by railbus63 on Fri May 16 13:24:56 2008. I agree that the R-32's were the best postwar cars on the system in terms of performance and reliability. If with deferred maintenance, they functioned well. |
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| (619196) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by 5119 on Mon May 19 05:15:25 2008, in response to Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by railbus63 on Fri May 16 13:24:56 2008. Opps, meant to say, "even with deferred maintenance." |
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| (619197) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by 5119 on Mon May 19 05:18:20 2008, in response to Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by railbus63 on Fri May 16 13:24:56 2008. Selkirk, you may know this, but wasn't it planned to have the R 32's return to the R10/16 seating pattern? |
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| (619378) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Eric B on Mon May 19 12:16:08 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sun May 18 20:11:52 2008. So the 42B was the older valve like the 32's, right? So does that mean that the PA1's didn't make the Vader sound (and only the PA2's and 3's did)? I never was able to tell the difference between the PA1-3's, but I know that I used to hear the Vader sound from the train. I assumed that was all cars (until the PA 4's, which sound like 62's). |
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| (619579) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 19 18:36:02 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Eric B on Mon May 19 12:16:08 2008. The brake valve has nothing to do with the sound of the brake release. That sound comes from the release magnet valves under the car. All NYCT cars that have WABCO brake valves from the R-38 on up have ME-43s but the sound of the R-38s through 42s pre GOH is different from the sound of the R-62s and 68As and post GOH equipment. Also many of the NYAB equipped cars have had their Newtran brake valves replaced by ME-43s from the decommisiioned cabs of unitzed cars but still retain the NYAB release sound. |
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| (619583) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon May 19 18:50:23 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Mon May 19 18:36:02 2008. What is the magnet valve? The load valve? Or is that the valve that allows air to escape the brake cylinder? |
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| (619586) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Mon May 19 18:59:32 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 22:28:38 2008. I'd like the GE R32s' front end look the best. |
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| (619588) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 19 19:02:27 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon May 19 18:50:23 2008. Each car has a set of magnet valves that are energized through the electric self lapping unit of the ME-42/43 series of brake valves. There is an application magnet and a release magnet as well as a separate emergency magnet which is energized by a sudden drop in the brake pipe pressure at the point of brake pipe exhaust. It is these magnet valves that allow the appropriate simultaneous application and release of the brakes throughout the entire train. |
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| (619592) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon May 19 19:08:04 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Mon May 19 19:02:27 2008. oh, thanks, but is there also a backup straight air system like the Arnines had? Which would bypass the electrical portion, and just be straight air with slack-in? You can cut out the dynamic brakes on SMEEs, but can you cut out the magnet valves? |
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| (619845) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Tue May 20 00:28:25 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 21:52:33 2008. With Photoshop, I was able to make a "prototype" or sample R39. Also depicted is a R33/36 WF.
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| (620359) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 20 22:40:15 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by R42 4787 on Tue May 20 00:28:25 2008. That looks roughly about right. :) |
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Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed May 21 08:05:30 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 22:16:22 2008. Not to mention their blue doors and green backlit side signs. |
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