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| (559894) | |
Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by geoffc on Sun Jan 27 11:38:00 2008 I am new to the region, and am quite enjoying the region, the subways, and this forum! I have the track map book (V4.1) and it is a great resource.I actually tried to print out the NJT, MNRR, LIRR track maps on a plotter at work, and even at 5 feet by 4 feet there is not enough resolution to read the station names, let alone see the track layouts. Oh well. Going to try stripping across two passes, so that would be 8 feet wide and 5 feet long. Maybe that will be more readable. (The Paris one came out beautifully at that res though!). With that preamble, I need to ask a silly question. What was the LOOP part of the Nassau Street Loop? I am still learning all the street names, so naming a street does not help me a lot. I look at it, and think, ok, something across the Manhattan Bridge (Since it was the servering of this link that ended the loop part of the route), to the Nassau st subway (J/M/Z in lower Manhattan today) and then where? Why was it called a loop, and where did it do the loop part? I hear loop and imagine a turning loop like City Hall on the 6, or South Ferry on the 1 (or 5/6 via the inner loop). But I am guessing that the loop meant here is different. Anyone have a map showing the original layout? Or anyone with free time willing to draw it on a Google Map? |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sun Jan 27 12:18:17 2008, in response to Nassau Street Loop, posted by geoffc on Sun Jan 27 11:38:00 2008. In order to understand the operation you have to look at the pre-1967 maps. In my example I will use one of the BMT maps posted on nycsubway.org. The relevant section is highlighted below:  Before 1967 the tracks on the south side of the Manhattan bridge that connect to the Broadway line today instead connected to the J/M/Z Nassau street line. The North side tracks connected to Broadway - Grand street and the connection to 6th Avenue did not exist. Trains from Brooklyn operated either to Broadway or through the "Nassau Street Loop" as it was called. Trains coming from Brooklyn could go over the Manhattan Bridge then south via Nassau Street and return to Brooklyn via the Montague St tunnel (R line). OR they could go through the Montague St tunnel, North through the Nassau Loop and return to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge. So yes - it was a return loop because they did not change ends in Manhattan. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by monorail on Sun Jan 27 14:40:20 2008, in response to Nassau Street Loop, posted by geoffc on Sun Jan 27 11:38:00 2008. 'I am new to the region'welcome to this region! |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Jan 27 15:05:31 2008, in response to Nassau Street Loop, posted by geoffc on Sun Jan 27 11:38:00 2008. Geo: Its not a silly question. New York's transit terminology can be confusing. It is a loop if we describe a loop as a half circle and not a full circle. A train entering such a loop makes a 180 degrees turn and reversing direction without changing ends. The City Hall and South Ferry Loops that you mention above are cases in point.A more expansive definition of loops can be found in the Dual Contract subways proposals for the BRT. (later the BMT)The proposals described the BMT rail lines as forming three loops from Queens and Eastern Brooklyn running through Manhattan and returning to Southern Brooklyn. If you lay the subway map on the floor and look down at it its easier to visualize this. The largest of the loops is the Broadway Line. BMT trains from Queens enter Manhattan via the 60th Street Tunnel run down Broadway and return to Brooklyn via the Montague Street Tunnel, as an alternative the express trains can return to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge. (Until 1967 these trains used the tracks on the north side of the bridge, since then they use the tracks on the south side. The next loop would have been the Centre Street Line. These trains from eastern Brooklyn entered Manhattan via the Williamsburg Bridge and ran down Centre Street to Chambers Street and returned to Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Bridge. The third loop would have come up from southern Brooklyn and crossed the East River via the tracks on the south side of the Manhattan Bridge. Upon reaching Manhattan the tracks turned southward into Chambers Street Station. They would have continued south along Williams Street and returned to Brooklyn via the aforementioned Montague Street Tunnel. Chambers Street Station was actually built as two separate two tracks stations side by side. Since it was intended that the two westernmost tracks (Centre St Loop) would return to Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Bridge they rise to a higher level than the two eastern tracks at the south end of the station. Of course the connection from Chambers Stree to the Brooklyn Bridge was never completed. What happened to the Williams Street Line? Once the BMT crossed the East River and reached Chambers Street Station they found that the IRT had already built a line on Williams Street. (The one that used by today's 2 and 3 trains to reach the Clark Street Tunnel.) Eventually the BMT decided to run trains south of Chambers Street using Nassau Street. This accounts for the wide swing to the west of the BMT Line south of Chambers Street Station. This swing is especially noticeable in your riding a northbound train. The track configuration at Chambers Street was changed into a more conventional arrangement with southbound trains using the two western tracks while northbound trains use the two eastern tracks. The two center tracks merge into a single tail track south of the station. This track runs underneath the southbound track to a point just north of the IRT at Beekman Street. It is used for turning midday M trains. Today the entire line from Essex Street south to Broad Street is commonly refered to as the "Nassau Street Line". (Used by J,M and Z) For many years it was usual to refer to the section between Essex Street and Chambers Sreet as the "Centre Street Line or Loop" while the section between Chambers Street and Broad Street was refered to as the "Nassau Street Line or Loop". Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 27 15:24:41 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Jan 27 15:05:31 2008. Very interesting.A typo I noticed: Once the BMT crossed the East River and reached Chambers Street Station they found that the IRT had already built a line on Williams Street. The sentence should end 'William Street'. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 27 16:43:48 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Jan 27 15:05:31 2008. I have seen some proposals for the eventual connection between Chambers St and the Montague St Tunnel and they indicate that the line was always intended to operate under Nassau St. Both tracks of the Nassau St Line as originally proposed would have swung under the ramp to the Bkln Br and used the present J-1 and J-3 tracks and continued back to Bkln via the Manny B. Additionally, when the Montague St tunnel was constructed, the bellmouths for the connection to the new line were lined up in such a way that Nassau St would have been the street to be used anyhow. Although the tiles on Broad and Fulton Sts of the Nassau St line were built to IND design, the present tiles that replaced them were taken from BRT/BMT drawings of the proposed stations and had the line been intended to be located under William St, then Broad St station would not have existed since S/O Nassau St the line is actually located lengthwise under Broad St. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jan 27 18:40:57 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 27 16:43:48 2008. I read that while Broad and Fulton were still built for the BMT, the city built the stations (just as they had built many of the stations, like the Centre St line, Dual Contracts stations, etc).And that "IND look" was the style the city used at the time, so that's why those stations (and 8th Ave) got that look. But as you said, the new "retro" tiles are more in keeping to how the stations were probably originally envisioned, and the way they should have been built to begin with. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 28 01:03:38 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 27 15:24:41 2008. Thats not exactly true..The IRT and BRT/BMT Dual Contract lines were PLANNED..nothing came as a "surprize" to any contractor or operator.. The BMT/BRT decided against the Brooklyn Bridge set up,and Nassau st cut due to other factors..not because of a planned IRT line under Williams.. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 28 18:16:23 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 28 01:03:38 2008. The IRT and BRT/BMT Dual Contract lines were PLANNED..nothing came as a "surprize" to any contractor or operator..Several lines could have ended up with either company. Just look at those provisions for the IRT 4th Avenue subway... |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 28 18:32:42 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 28 18:16:23 2008. Heck ..the Lexington itself was a BMT[TRIBORO] route at on time,Connected to the lower Broadway at 14th st..The Pitkin Avenue subway[IND] was Planned as a extension of the Eastern Pkwy IRT system,while the IND was being thought up... The LAFFAYETTE AVENUE subway was a IRT..then BMT..THEN IND route when all the hashing was finished..the BMT wanted to loop the line back to Broadway..while the IND wanted to send it to Queens vis Stanhope st.. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 01:46:45 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 28 18:32:42 2008. I would comment that the Nassau Street Line was not an afterthought or a compromise because a line on William Street stood in the way. The Nassau Street Line was the only part of the proposed Third Avenue subway ever built. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 30 05:32:17 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 01:46:45 2008. Tell me more about this proposed Third Av Subway. I never heard of such a thing. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by Neil Feldman on Wed Jan 30 08:45:55 2008, in response to Nassau Street Loop, posted by geoffc on Sun Jan 27 11:38:00 2008. The loop to what is referred is actually a line that connnected the Nassau St. (J,M,Z) to the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to what the Broadway (N,Q) use now. Those tracks are now stub-ended before the tracks get to the Bridge. Broadway Line trackage used to run on the North Side until 1967 when 6th Ave IND service took over when the Chrystie St opened up then got switched to the south side, and the Nassau St. Loop got discontinued. These tracks are now served as Layup tracks. |
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3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop) |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 15:11:41 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 30 05:32:17 2008. Proposed 1905, connections in the Bronx similar to (and probably instead of) the Lexington Avenue subway, the full length of Third Avenue in Manhattan to Chatham Square, to Park Row, four tracks. Then one branch via Nassau Street, Broad Street, two tracks. Another brnach east of the Nassau Street one, also two tracks, but I forget where. Only the Nassau Street Line was included in the Dual Contracts and eventually built.I think I have more infor and maybe even a map somewhere. If you're interested I'll try to hunt it down. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 30 15:27:33 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 01:46:45 2008. Correct..there was a planned station transfer to the 3rd Avenue Subway at Bowery....You can even see it for yourself..if you look for it..[I've seen "stuff" there years ago as a youngster that scared the heck out of me so I never went back..] |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 15:33:06 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 30 15:27:33 2008. Bowery was never a very cheerful station, somehow. I got off there once from a Bway-Bklyn local so I wouldn't have to walk around at Canal Street to get a Jamaica or Myrtle-Chambers further south. Nothing terrible happened but I didn't do it again. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by r44stlouis on Wed Jan 30 17:14:19 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 15:33:06 2008. if the nassau street loop was still active, they could at least stick the r44's there until they fall apart for that final time |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 30 18:31:49 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 01:46:45 2008. I don't think that the Nassau St line had anything to do with the proposed 3 Av subway. The only evidence of a connection to a proposed 3 Av subway is the existence of 2 bellmouths 1 block west of the present Chrystie St Line which came off the original A-1 and A-2 tracks off the Manny B and which unfortunately can no longer be seen from any trains. There is also a partial bellmouth west of Bowery station off J-2 track which may or may not have been for a proposed connection to a 3 Av subway, but it is west of Bowery which becomes 3 Av and was also PRE dual contracts. I have never seen any documentation to indicate that the Nassau St Line was to be part of anything else that what it presently is. |
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Re: 3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 30 19:41:43 2008, in response to 3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop), posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 15:11:41 2008. I think I have more infor and maybe even a map somewhere. If you're interested I'll try to hunt it down.:-) Maps are teh über-w00t!!!!1!!!!11!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: 3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop) |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 20:20:13 2008, in response to Re: 3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 30 19:41:43 2008. I will find my material, and then I will post it. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Wed Jan 30 23:53:32 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jan 30 15:27:33 2008. there is space at the closed end of the bowery station for a 4track station above the J tracks.from what I,ve seen at the closed end only a brick wall seperates the fare control area from the station area.it is unknown if a shell station was built there.if you look at the ceiling at the closed end,you can see space for a 4track subway. |
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Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif) |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 31 01:01:16 2008, in response to Re: 3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop), posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 20:20:13 2008. 
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 31 01:17:34 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 30 18:31:49 2008. I have never seen any documentation to indicate that the Nassau St Line was to be part of anything else that what it presently is.Now you have! :) |
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Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Jan 31 04:22:36 2008, in response to Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif), posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 31 01:01:16 2008. Thanks! That's a seriously weird plan... It doesn't look like it would have resulted in a very effective use of capacity. |
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Re: 3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop) |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 07:07:40 2008, in response to 3rd AVenue Subway (Re: Nassau Street Loop), posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 30 15:11:41 2008. Cool! Thank you very much. It looks a lot like my idea of a SAS to Nassau St via Chatham Sq-Park Row with another branch going down Pearl/Water st. Had this been built, the original IRT would probably still have its original configuration since it would have been unnecessary to extend it north of GCT along Lexington Av. |
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Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 31 10:48:10 2008, in response to Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Jan 31 04:22:36 2008. Probably why it wasn't built. |
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| (562005) | |
Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 31 10:56:32 2008, in response to Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif), posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 31 01:01:16 2008. Looks similar to the original Lexington Ave subway route. |
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Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif) |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 31 11:24:37 2008, in response to Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 31 10:48:10 2008. Many rapid transit lines were proposed and "approved" before the Dual Contracts, but for the most part were mapped without immediate construction plans. The contracts picked and chose, sliced and diced, cut and pasted, and small bits of routes, such as this, were incorporated into built routes. |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 31 17:54:23 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 31 01:17:34 2008. Thanks. That's very interesting. It looks like the 3 Av subway was proposed even before the BRT built its original Centre St Line. Another poster mentions that there seems to be a space for a 4 track subway at one end of Bowery station. That may be a remnant of the original plans and also may explain why the there is the provision for connection to a 3 Av subway coming off the Manny B that I mentioned in my post. The only question that remains is that at the time its construction was proposd, which company would have operated it? More than likely it would have been the IRT since the BRT did not yet have a subway in Manhattan. Its only Manhattan trackage at the time was Park Row terminal. Of course, after the Centre St line and the Manny B trackage were built, it would probably have been assigned to the BRT. |
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Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif) |
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Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 17:56:00 2008, in response to Re: Third Avenue Subway map (200K gif), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 31 10:56:32 2008. Got a map for that one? |
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Re: Nassau Street Loop |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 31 18:21:37 2008, in response to Re: Nassau Street Loop, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 31 17:54:23 2008. I assume that, by default, it was assumed the IRT would run it. AFAIK, the BRT had not yet expressed its interest in city owned subways when the 3rd Avenue subway was mapped in 1905.By 1911, though, the BRT was interested in a BIG way. |
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