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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Jan 4 17:58:56 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Jan 4 16:03:54 2007. But it is true. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 4 19:01:32 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Jan 4 17:03:31 2007. Back when PATH first took over the H & M, one of their officials mentioned to me that PATH wanted to have as much of the railcar parts as compatible as possible. He even mentioned that PATH wanted to ust the ME-42A brake valves like the ones on the K cars rather than the newer ME-42Bs that were on the newest NYCTA equipment. He said PATH didn't want to be bothered stocking different parts for different types of equipment. I don't quit recall the circumstances of the meeting but it might just have been a display booth in the old Hudson Terminal when PATH firs took over the system. This was not too different from the IND subway's policy of designing all cars from R-1 through R-9 with AMUE brakes with ME-23 brake valves rather than utilizing the AMCE/ME-39 brake system that the BMT multis used. Unfortunately, despite PATH's efforts, it fell victim to the NYCTAing of the railcar industry and was forced to install ME-42B brake valves in the PA-1s since WABCO had stopped manufacturing ME-42As likely at the request of the NYCTA which was looking for a superior design brake valve. It was probably the insistance of the NYCTA that kept WABCO manufacturing ME-42B and ME-43 brake valves as long as it did rather than discontinuing these items entirely in favor of the cineston combined controller and brake valve as used in most of the other major rapid transit systems in the country at the time. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Jan 4 21:16:37 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by PATHman on Thu Jan 4 00:04:13 2007. Inferior?Your at the wrong place to call NYCTA/MTA inferior.. Plus,how can you TELL if the cars are BETTER from a DRAWING? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jan 4 21:46:54 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 4 03:31:45 2007. "PATH ain't superior to anything in the NY metro area."By what standards? I don't ride it often, but I've not been dissatisfied overall. It certainly runs rings around the NYC subway system as far as cleanliness goes. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 4 22:14:54 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jan 4 21:46:54 2007. By what standards?Hey . . . nobody set standards for superiority, so I set none for mediocrity. Don't you love when people make blanket statements? (I know, my parody of one demonstrates that the form cannot rise above itself.) |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 4 22:16:50 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Jan 4 16:59:35 2007. That's not a measure of superiority. It's just a measure of FRA versus FTA. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by J trainloco on Fri Jan 5 00:42:21 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Thu Jan 4 03:12:53 2007. If by retro, you mean: R142 interiors, then, you are correct. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Fri Jan 5 01:04:41 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by J trainloco on Fri Jan 5 00:42:21 2007. I was referring to the color scheme. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by J trainloco on Fri Jan 5 01:06:59 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Fri Jan 5 01:04:41 2007. On the outside? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 04:17:39 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by WillD on Thu Jan 4 17:20:49 2007. You believe SEPTA? I sure don't. Their reputation for mendacity precedes them. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 04:19:27 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Jan 4 16:58:19 2007. PATH operates under multiple waivers and the crash specs is one of themPROFF? Also, the new gallery cars ordered by Metra have railfan windows and they meet the new specs So what? They got zealous conductors to boot the fans out of the vicinity of said windows. If they cut back on personnel, watch for them to do the big old coverup. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 04:20:25 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Jan 4 16:58:19 2007. Oh yeah, assuming your waiver story is true, how can you get waivers for new cars? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 04:23:28 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Jan 4 16:55:11 2007. PATCO is closer to PATH than PATH is to the NYC SubwayEl false-o. PATH is built to IRT specs. PATH uses operator and conductor (teh beautiful non-automation). And PATH is in NYC. Also, operating under partial FRA rules does have have anything to do w/ the presence of a railfan window I wasn't discussing that here. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:30:10 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 4 22:16:50 2007. No its not. Ask any of the Mid-Winter trippers their experiances on SEPTA transit vs the NYCS. In fact on SEPTA the subways run faster than the Regional Rail in many cases. Its a question of the commitment by an agency to its quality of service. PATH has it, PATCO has it, SEPTA has it inspite of itself, but the NYCTA does not. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:35:24 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 4 19:01:32 2007. Yeah, if PATH is going to stick with having the PA-5's be single units (like the PA1-4s) I would be amazed if their new cars held fewer people than the old ones. PATH is maxed out in terms of capacity, I don't think that reducing interrior space is something they would want to do. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:42:38 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 04:20:25 2007. Because PATH operates on an isolated system. Without freight in the mix there is no real basis for the new crash standards. You are already seeing much more flexibility with the FRA in mixing light rail and freight. On PATH there's no mix, the system is grandfathered up the wazoo in regard to many classes of regulation and even if the PA-5's weren't automatically waivered PATH could easily get one. Do you honestly think that Tier 2 would be practical on a system running 51-foot cars? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:48:45 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 04:23:28 2007. I was referring to the railroad mentality of their operations as compared with the current-day NYC Subway.Incidently, one tip-off to the use of a half-cab is the design of the front of the PA-5. If there was a full-cab you'd see the R-142 designed front with the dual windows. I do believe there is a regulation (or at least a standard) against placing a window in front of passenger seats (like PATCO or the MFL M-IV's) so the blank end indicates passengers sitting there as in the M-1/2/3/4/6 design. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Jace on Fri Jan 5 08:34:19 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:48:45 2007. The cab will be full width and like the R143's, the left front is blanked off largely for the installation of signal equipment racks. If and when the R142's get CBTC equipment installed, the left front window will likely disappear. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Fri Jan 5 08:39:13 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by J trainloco on Fri Jan 5 01:06:59 2007. from nycsubway.org
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by jb on Fri Jan 5 15:13:36 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jace on Fri Jan 5 08:34:19 2007. I thought that The Market Street Septa cars had seats right in front of the windows? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 5 15:22:28 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by jb on Fri Jan 5 15:13:36 2007. You are correct. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by DCmetrogreen on Fri Jan 5 16:34:06 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jan 5 15:22:28 2007. The WMATA cars do too, there is just a door in the way. If that door were to be swung closed to make a half-with cab, you could see out the front. You are usually able to see out the back of the train in this same manner. There is another seat behind the partition. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jan 5 17:28:50 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:48:45 2007. I do believe there is a regulation (or at least a standard) against placing a window in front of passenger seats (like PATCO or the MFL M-IV's)What is this regulation? I've looked through 49CFR and can't find it. Why does everyone seem to be under the collective delusion that the FRA has anything to do with the decline of the RFW? Just about the only thing I can find which relates is the need to protect the passengers from flying glass, but the PA cars' dual window arrangement with two layers of lexan would seem to be more than sufficient for that. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 5 17:40:42 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:42:38 2007. PATH is subject to FRA rules since there is a connection to the mainline railroads near Harrison Shop, by the grade crossing.I have heard they tried to get a waiver in the past and were denied. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Jan 5 17:49:55 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:35:24 2007. They should extend the platforms in the Manhattan PATH stations. It would be somewhat cheaper than having more trains than it can handle. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by J trainloco on Fri Jan 5 23:46:49 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 5 17:40:42 2007. There's obviously more involved than merely a connection to an FRA regulated railroad, as NYCT would be under the FRA regs if that were the case. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by J trainloco on Fri Jan 5 23:50:39 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Jan 4 16:59:35 2007. Really? Where is it faster than NYCS, and how fast does it go? I don't question that it is nominally faster than NYCT in SIMILAR areas, but it's not like circumstances don't dictate that. As far as tighter ship, I don't know what that means, could you please explain? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 23:58:30 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:30:10 2007. Ask any of the Mid-Winter trippers their experiances (sic) on SEPTA transit vs the NYCSDon't change the subject. And PATH does not run faster than the NYC subway when underground. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Jan 6 00:05:14 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 5 23:58:30 2007. All subways run faster than the NYC subway when underground. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sat Jan 6 00:22:26 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by J trainloco on Fri Jan 5 23:46:49 2007. As would SEPTA... |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by J trainloco on Sat Jan 6 00:26:05 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sat Jan 6 00:22:26 2007. I thought SEPTA was? Aren't the lines that make up your handle part of SEPTA, and under FRA? I don't know anything about SEPTA. (except what it stands for) |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 00:31:08 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jan 5 07:42:38 2007. Because PATH operates on an isolated systemNo they don't. Only in your head they do. You are already seeing much more flexibility with the FRA in mixing light rail and freight False. When are light rail and freight trains on the same track at the same time?!? On PATH there's no mix, the system is grandfathered up the wazoo in regard to many classes of regulation and even if the PA-5's weren't automatically waivered PATH could easily get one. Do you honestly think that Tier 2 would be practical on a system running 51-foot cars? Stop making up stuff in your head. There are no waivers. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 00:33:02 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by WillD on Fri Jan 5 17:28:50 2007. Why does everyone seem to be under the collective delusion that the FRA has anything to do with the decline of the RFW?I thought it was those pesky unions and lawyers myself ;-P |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 00:33:47 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Easy on Sat Jan 6 00:05:14 2007. All subways run faster than the NYC subway when undergroundNot PATH. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Sat Jan 6 00:34:00 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Easy on Sat Jan 6 00:05:14 2007. I'd have to cite the MBTA as an exception to the rule. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by PATHman on Sat Jan 6 00:36:22 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 00:33:47 2007. PATH on 6th Avenue is much faster than the F/V on 6th Avenue. There is no stretch in the NYC subway as fast as PATH between Journal Square and Harrison. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 00:40:22 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 5 17:40:42 2007. If that's the case, what's the story with the SIR? It hasn't been connected to any mainline railroad since the North Shore Line was abandoned and severed any connections from the SIR to NJ. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 00:40:46 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by PATHman on Sat Jan 6 00:36:22 2007. Agreed. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Sat Jan 6 00:42:26 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by PATHman on Sat Jan 6 00:36:22 2007. But the latter isn't underground.And given PATH's "questionable" headways, I'd rather take the F or V. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 00:45:24 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 00:33:47 2007. PATH runs at noticeably faster speeds as there are larger gaps between stations and they don't have NYC Subway timers that slow down the "faster" lines.What line/section in the NYC Subway is faster than PATH in your opinion? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 00:48:09 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 00:40:46 2007. Actually I retract that, some sections of the River tunnels can reach speeds found on the Newark stretch of the PATH and if the SIR counts, the express run from St. George to Great Kills can be a very fast ride as well. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 00:48:26 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by The Port of Authority on Sat Jan 6 00:42:26 2007. You're right about the headways, the (F), (V) are slightly more predictable in that case. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jan 6 01:09:40 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by J trainloco on Sat Jan 6 00:26:05 2007. SEPTA's Regional Rail lines, the R1 through 8 as in Dante's handle, are a FRA mandated commuter rail lines similar to the LIRR, MNRR, and NJT. However, SEPTA's Broad Street Subway and Market Frankford El are both subways under FTA control, just like NYCTA. What Dante is refering to is a track connection between the former Reading Mainline and the Broad Street Subway at the BSS's Fern Rock yard. This connection is very low speed and clearly has some sort of waiver on it to allow the BSS to connect to the national network for equipment delivery yet the BSS can run equipment which isn't FRA compatible.Incidentally there is no R4 on SEPTA's regional rail network. There was an R4 in the original 1970s plan developed by UPenn transport professor Dr. Vukan Vuchic, but the failure to build the Swampoodle connector meant that the current numbering arrangement had to be adopted, sans R4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA_Regional_Rail#Original_route_numbering_plan |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sat Jan 6 01:30:57 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by J trainloco on Sat Jan 6 00:26:05 2007. What he said |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 02:01:22 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by PATHman on Sat Jan 6 00:36:22 2007. PATH on 6th Avenue is much faster than the F/V on 6th AvenueFaster than the local train? Perhaps marginally, because it was there first on 6th Avenue and doesn't have the same kind of grades and turns to deal with. That's an isolated case, though. There is no stretch in the NYC subway as fast as PATH between Journal Square and Harrison I said underground. That stretch is part of the former Pennsylvania Railroad original main line, BTW. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 02:02:34 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 00:48:09 2007. some sections of the River tunnels can reach speeds found on the Newark stretch of the PATHWhere? I've seen no faster than 45 mph in the Hudson Tubes. That matches the express trains in the subway. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 02:04:38 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jan 4 08:45:19 2007. PATH DOES have plans to eliminate conductors - PATH does plan OPTO - meaning no conductor and a FULL cab unfortunately. We shall seeDepends on how tough their union is. The FRA also has their own rules concerning such things. |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sat Jan 6 02:28:59 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 00:33:47 2007. The PA1-4 cars are actually capable of 75mph if the fourth point in the controller was activated. There were plans to increase speeds between Journal Sq to Harrison but they fell through. :( |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 02:33:04 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 02:02:34 2007. By River tunnels, I meant the NYC Subway East River tunnels, not the Hudson Tubes. It has been noted that some trains can reach 62 mph in the 60th Street Tubes and possibly other tubes as well.My question for you is, where exactly is the subway faster than PATH? You did state that PATH is not faster than the subways, so where exactly is it faster? |
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Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 6 03:24:04 2007, in response to Re: PATH: PA-5 cars, how will they look like, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Jan 6 02:33:04 2007. My question for you is, where exactly is the subway faster than PATH? You did state that PATH is not faster than the subways, so where exactly is it faster?I never claimed it was faster. All I said is that PATH on its underground sections is not faster. |
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