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History of the Overnight

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 10 20:36:52 2024

I have a few questions about overnight service in NYC subway history. None of these questions have extraordinary circumstances like repair/construction or 9/11 or strikes or Covid or anything like that in mind. I'm talking about simple regular scheduled service during ordinary times.

1) For at least the last 30 years as far as I can tell the standard has been 20 minute frequencies on all operating lines (at the heart of the overnight). Can anyone remember, going as far back in time as you can, if/when the frequency was last changed or when the last exceptions were?

2) If I have it right, the last full stations not to see service on the overnight were the 145th and 148th St stations on the 3, and--for full weekends--the Broad Street station on the J. Before those, what other stations were there seeing a complete stoppage of service each night, or on some nights?

3) When service on the J didn't go through to Broad, the Fulton Street platforms of the J did not see service. Is that the last platform within an operating station that we know of to not see 24/7 service? Today, the platforms (not individual tracks) that don't see overnight service seem to be mainly the ones that are express-only, such as the Atlantic Ave IRT express, 34th/8th express, Nostrand IND express, and relevant Lexington Express platforms. Are there any other platforms that come to mind that would routinely lose service during overnights, weekends, or both, going back in time? That is. . .no trains available to people on any track without having to switch to a different platform?

The closest thing I can think of might be the Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle platform(s) when it applied. But I wouldn't count platforms once they're totally abandoned.

As I ask these questions, I'm not sure if the Culver Shuttle and/or the remnant of the 3rd Ave elevated (the "8 train") were 24/7 or not.

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 11 02:23:32 2024, in response to History of the Overnight, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 10 20:36:52 2024.

Before David Gunn’s team descended on the schedule office like a swarm of locusts and trashed all of the outdated schedules, I was able to check a few old timetables and even keep one. The one I have somewhere in my collection is a Pelham Line (#6) timetable from 1946 which shows 12 min headways on the midnights. A 14th St Line (L) timetable from the mid 1950s showed a midnight headway of 30 min longer than the 20 min we are used to now. If I recall, overnight the City Hall loop station was also closed on the midnights til it was closed completely after WWII even though local trains used it to turn back. Ani=other station that I am aware that closed on weekends although I’m not sure if it closed overnight during the week is Rockaway Ave on the old Fulton St el. At those time Fulton St el trains from Lefferts terminated at Eastern Pky at the Bway Bkln Line platform. Rockaway Ave was open 24/7 when the IND terminated at Rockaway Ave but once the IND was extended to Bway ENY (Bway Jct) passengers could get Fulton St el trains there. The reason that during the week, Rockaway Ave had to remain open was because there was too much service on the Bway Bkln Line to allow trains to be turned there.

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Mon Nov 11 05:56:59 2024, in response to History of the Overnight, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 10 20:36:52 2024.



As I ask these questions, I'm not sure if the Culver Shuttle and/or the remnant of the 3rd Ave elevated (the "8 train") were 24/7 or not.

Both of these lines ran 24/7 right up until the end.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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(1637188)

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 11 08:48:30 2024, in response to History of the Overnight, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 10 20:36:52 2024.

Are there any other platforms that come to mind that would routinely lose service during overnights, weekends, or both, going back in time?

Times Square-GCT Shuttle still does, along with the in-system transfer between the A/E/N/Q/1/2/3(?) and the D/F.

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Nov 11 14:33:00 2024, in response to History of the Overnight, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Nov 10 20:36:52 2024.

Doesn't the "A" train run every 15 minutes at night?

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 11 14:42:22 2024, in response to Re: History of the Overnight, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Nov 11 14:33:00 2024.

Not that I know of, or can see on the timetables. Not counting the overlap with the Lefferts shuttle.

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by B1bus on Tue Nov 12 01:19:57 2024, in response to Re: History of the Overnight, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Nov 11 14:33:00 2024.

The Dyre ave shuttle ran 40 minutes apart between 2 and 4 am.
I closed the gates at Fulton street Friday nights for 6 months.
I would get on the train at Broad st after walking from Bowling Green.
Also the J ended at Canal street for awhile decades ago.

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 12 02:45:57 2024, in response to Re: History of the Overnight, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Mon Nov 11 05:56:59 2024.

FYI, according to an 2nd Ave el old timer cited in another post, the 2nd Ave el shut down overnight while the 3rd Ave ran all night.

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 12 02:52:37 2024, in response to Re: History of the Overnight, posted by B1bus on Tue Nov 12 01:19:57 2024.

Aside from Dyre running 40 min between 2 and 4 (to allow the only midnight crew a lunch relief) I recall that the Dyre shuttle did not run from about 1AM to 5AM through the 1950s and early 1960s.

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Re: History of the Overnight

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 12 08:57:13 2024, in response to Re: History of the Overnight, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 11 08:48:30 2024.

J train south of Canal (then Chambers) overnights and weekends in the 90s. Nroad St was used a lot during this era for TV and movie shoots because of this.

145th/Lenox was closed at night until the line was extended to 148th. Both were replaced by an overnight bus for several recent years as well.

Both express platforms at Penn Station on 8th and 7th Aves currently are useless unless some overnight diversion is on effect.

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