Bergen Cutoff

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Bergen Cutoff

Posted by Q65A on Tue Jul 23 14:37:31 2024

From an interesting YouTube channel called Subways_io comes this short video about the IRT Bergen Avenue Cutoff:

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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Q65A* on Tue Jul 23 14:38:21 2024, in response to Bergen Cutoff, posted by Q65A on Tue Jul 23 14:37:31 2024.* Oops! Bergen Cutoff
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by zac* on Tue Jul 23 18:42:04 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Q65A on Tue Jul 23 14:38:21 2024.* I would never have thought there was film of this. This line has intrigued me for some reason since I first heard of it, probably here on Subchat. And no thread about defunct els is complete without one of my pics that I took from my bike: The Bergen Cutoff came off the top level tracks at grade, as seen in the video.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Q65A* on Tue Jul 23 20:07:20 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by zac on Tue Jul 23 18:42:04 2024.* That steelwork looks good painted in MTA-standard "Woodland Night" :-)
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by zac* on Wed Jul 24 10:10:00 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Q65A on Tue Jul 23 20:07:20 2024.* Another one that looks good is the turnoff from Van Sinderen to Pitkin on the Fulton El. The stubs are in better condition than the operating portions.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Q65A* on Wed Jul 24 11:55:22 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by zac on Wed Jul 24 10:10:00 2024.* Kudos to you; you really know how to capture transit archaeology, sir!
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by zac* on Wed Jul 24 14:01:37 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Q65A on Wed Jul 24 11:55:22 2024.* In the summer/fall of '21 I needed some destinations for bike riding and I made it a point to find every dismantled el remnant. The furthest was Gun Hill Road, about 20-25 miles from home, so RT it was 40-50, and I never did a straight shot anyway. The pics were all posted here. In the process I discovered something that I'd never seen discussed or mentioned anywhere. There is a stub coming off the Queensboro Plaza dismantled north set of platforms that points at Jackson Ave that was meant to be the lead to the BRT Brooklyn/Queens Crosstown line. That line was never built and was dropped from the dual contracts early on in the planning. I saw a reference to it in a 1913 draft but it didn't make it to the final contract. Where I saw that I couldn't tell you, but it is out there somewhere. Anyway, here it is: The track veering off to the right is the tail track built to turn BMT subway trains since they couldn't continue on to Astoria or Flushing. It was built on top of the original trackways in the 20s. The supporting cross beam is always at or near right angles to the tracks and that support beam would straddle Jackson.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Edwards!* on Wed Jul 24 14:23:26 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Q65A on Tue Jul 23 14:38:21 2024.* Wow. I look at what we once had, compared to what we have Now. I believe NYC has destroyed more trackage than it has built,in the last 70 years. We have destroyed so many elevated lines, that could have been rebuilt. Lost service,that the city can't afford to replace because of the high construction cost. Foolish men, do foolish things,then justify "their reasoning" with more foolish thoughts, and more promises that are never fulfilled. Glad to see the MTA were not able to destroy the Broadway Jamaica el, Myrtle Ave above Broadway or the Canarsie line, like they wanted. They would Not 'replace' those lines, instead running half assed bus service (the B54 is the prime example of this).
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Wed Jul 24 21:26:06 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jul 24 14:23:26 2024.* I agree with you
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Elkeeper* on Thu Jul 25 23:26:28 2024, in response to Bergen Cutoff, posted by Q65A on Tue Jul 23 14:37:31 2024.* I knew that the Bergen Cutoff had five AM rush hour trains and five PM rush trains. Was declining ridership the reason it was abandoned in 1946?
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by randyo* on Fri Jul 26 02:38:07 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 25 23:26:28 2024.* Well of course, by the time the operation on the cutoff ceased, service was being operated by 3rd Ave expresses after the 2nd Ave el shut down in 1940. Declining ridership was a distinct possibility.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by r17-6599* on Fri Jul 26 09:13:24 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jul 24 14:23:26 2024.* You said it! Remember in the early 80s when the MTA wanted to dismantle the Jerome Av line north of 161st. That set off major public outcry, even getting media attention. Needless to say, that idea died.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by zac* on Fri Jul 26 09:56:28 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by randyo on Fri Jul 26 02:38:07 2024.* Probably also due to a change in operations. Why have all the switching just to have a train go from Freeman St down 3rd Ave? Maybe they were able to add a few subway trains to fill in the gap left by the 3rd Ave trains, which were only a stopgap themselves when they tore down 2nd Ave.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Fri Jul 26 10:03:06 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 25 23:26:28 2024.* Probably to make ridership decline faster.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by randyo* on Sat Jul 27 01:42:54 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Jul 26 09:13:24 2024.* Actually, that was probably one of Mayor Hylan’s plans when the IND concourse Line was planned. Although eh really didn’t have the same animosity towards the IRT as he did to the BRT/BMT he still wanted as many of the private company lines removed as possible. While he probably couldn’t realistically shut down the subway lines, he wanted as many of the elevated lines as possible removed and replaced by subway lines either directly or as closely as possible. In Manhattan that was relatively easy since the 6th and 9th Ave els were replaced by the 67th and 8th Ave subways. In Bkln, the entire Fulton St el was almost completely duplicated mile for mile by the IND Fulton St Line. Even the eventual takeover of the Culver el and outer portion of the Fulton St el were in the IND’s master plan from the beginning. Of course after unification, some of the proposed IND subway lines were deferred since they would have duplicated many of the existing IRT and BMT els and since the city now had ownership of them removing them and going to the expense of replacing them didn’t seem as important.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by zac* on Sat Jul 27 10:06:40 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 27 01:42:54 2024.* But the Jerome line wasn't an el, but an elevated part of the subway built with the dual contracts. This is why I never understood why the Concourse line was built so close. Maybe it should have been closer to the 3rd Ave el in the Bronx with the plan to tear that down. That would've made more sense. Of course, they tore that down anyway, even some parts that were also newer.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Edwards!* on Sat Jul 27 22:11:36 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Jul 26 09:13:24 2024.* Yes. They tried to shutter the entire mid section of the 14th st line through northern Brooklyn.. the Livonia El after Utica.. the entire Jamaica line, Myrtle, and the Rockaway Park branch. They wanted to shutter the Nassau st line too.. but they managed to only get Chambers,Fulton and Broad closed on weekends. The G was saved due to isolation, with no other subways in the center section under Broadway. What they were doing was trying to reduce their operations responsibilities, and shift ridership to the bus system. Funny thing is,any "bus substitute" turned out to be the worst option.. The B54 replaced the Myrtle Avenue El,(the bus already existed, however) The service was, and still is a horror show,as buses show up whenever they want. The Bx55 was just as bad, if not worse. The Q49 replacement for the J line was a pure mess. Instead of FIXING what THEY considered "broken",they chose to destroy viable options and opportunities for improvements. The Myrtle Could have been saved, and it should've. Today, the line represents the clear intent of the agency of the time. It's funny how they were able to find money to remove the els,yet couldn't find the money to fix,or replace them. The One exception, the Archer Avenue subway. It was an actual benefit to Jamaica for two reasons. The link brought the line to the LIRR directly, and gave Queens Blvd riders a direct access to downtown Jamaica. However, the upper level was supposed to travel much further, and the missing station at Merrick Blvd is sorely needed. Also, the Springfield Blvd route Still needs to be built. Addressing additional service needs should be paramount to the MTA, Small extension here and there. Right Now,a station Should be built to serve Spring Creek/City Line at Linden Blvd.. This can be accomplished using Pitkin yard, similar to how the 148th st station was built. The station would be served by C trains during normal operation hours, and a shuttle late hours when C service goes to bed for the night. The Bx41,8 assume, serves as the SBS service in-between the gap in the Bronx. While that's nice, the need for rail still exists. North, South..East to West. New York has one of the largest rapid transit systems in the world, but has lingered behind with expansion. No new truck lines since 6th Ave subway was "finished".. Very few projects completed.. Bits and pieces over the years costing billions. Hopefully,by 2027, the IBX will change the perception of the worlds largest Shrinking system, and the SAS uptown section will bring hope.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Q4 on Sat Jul 27 23:22:15 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 27 22:11:36 2024. No argument here other than it was the lower level that was to go to Merrick Boulevard and Archer as the upper level turns south and the tracks ends near South Road for the planned capture (or co-habitation) of the LIRR’s branch at that location.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by randyo* on Sun Jul 28 03:43:51 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by zac on Sat Jul 27 10:06:40 2024.* What the Concourse line was trying to do in effect was to replace the 6th and 9th Ave elevated services that operated on the Jerome Line.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Elkeeper* on Sun Jul 28 12:41:36 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by zac on Fri Jul 26 09:56:28 2024.* Bergen Cutoff trains ran from the upper level of the right of way, between Willis and Alexander Aves. So, switching was not that big of a problem. Also, post-WW2 expresses ran all day on 3rd Ave, until the early 1950’s. Hardly a stopgap measure.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by Edwards!* on Sun Jul 28 22:54:50 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Q4 on Sat Jul 27 23:22:15 2024.* Yeah.. I was on a roll there, and mixed the two up quick typing. The MTA did a about face on the expansion plans, instead focusing on the LIRR eastern lines. They enhanced services, and has attempted to draw passengers at the higher fare.. instead of NYCTA based fares. This didn't actually help riders, and only served to add to already packed LIRR trains from the east. This not only added to the considerable misery.. but increased the the anti city folks on "our trains" sentiments. The MTAs attempt at creating a semi regional system,has failed. The solution has always been complete integration of both subway and commuter rail operations, with hybrid vehicles able to operate on both. The problem is, there is to much division, and the lack of Can Do spirit to make good decisions happen. The ideal situation would have the rapid transit operation take over most Nassau Queens Manhattan and Brooklyn services, While longer distances would be handled by direct Grand Central or Pennsylvania Station trains. Obviously, this is the LIRR we are talking about, not Metro North.. However, the hybrid car can adopt to the MNRR archetype third rail, and cover most routes,even HellGate. What's holding this back is logistics, and personal fiefdoms. Logistics can be worked on, and worked out. Ego's are a totally different animal. Thanks for pointing out my mix up.
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Re: Bergen Cutoff
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jul 29 02:02:57 2024, in response to Re: Bergen Cutoff, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jul 28 12:41:36 2024.* However, it was right after the end of WWII that Freeman St service ended.
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