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| (1607096) | |
W 4th Street |
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Posted by Baltimorerail on Mon Aug 29 18:50:02 2022 Why is w 4th street on 2 levels?Also is there any interconnection between the 2 levels? |
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| (1607098) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Aug 29 18:58:25 2022, in response to W 4th Street, posted by Baltimorerail on Mon Aug 29 18:50:02 2022. Why is w 4th street on 2 levels?Because there isn't enough room for 8 tracks and necessary platforms on one level. Also is there any interconnection between the 2 levels? Yes, limited interconnection. Northbound C/E trains can end up on the northbound F/M track if the switches are appropriately set. Ditto northbound F/M trains can end up on the C/E. Ditto the same pair of interconnections going southbound. There is no interconnection between the A and the B/D. |
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| (1607100) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Aug 29 19:17:19 2022, in response to W 4th Street, posted by Baltimorerail on Mon Aug 29 18:50:02 2022. To clarify the southbound situation, all southbound C/E trains have to come in on the C/E track. But then they can be switched onto the F/M track south of the station.Similarly, southbound F/M trains must come in on the F/M track, but then can be switched to the C/E. |
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| (1607101) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Handbrake on Mon Aug 29 19:26:37 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by AlM on Mon Aug 29 18:58:25 2022. There are flyovers at switches that permit switching between 8th AVE local A chained tracks (Upper level) and 6th AVE local B chained tracks (Lower level) south of the W4th Street station.The above permits 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue local tracks to fully mesh to permit reroutes or various service patterns to exist. A & B chained Express tracks do not interlock south of W4th Street and proceed on a individual diverging routes down/up 6th Avenue or Houston Street. |
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| (1607102) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by zac on Mon Aug 29 19:57:36 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by AlM on Mon Aug 29 19:17:19 2022. The fly in the ointment is that when the D is rerouted onto 8th Ave, there is no way to get that train back onto the Houston St express track that goes to the bridge. If it comes into W4th on the local it can go to Bway/Laf but only on the local side. As a workaround they sometimes switch the F & D in Brooklyn since the F can come in on the express track at W4th and straight rail to Bway/Laf express track. But this can only happen if the F is on 6th Ave and not also rerouted to 8th Ave, but it can also be rerouted to Bway. Lots of options, but the D is the one that gets stuck. |
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| (1607108) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Aug 29 21:33:02 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Mon Aug 29 19:57:36 2022. But this can only happen if the F is on 6th Ave and not also rerouted to 8th Ave, but it can also be rerouted to Bway. Lots of options, but the D is the one that gets stuck.And that is the biggest flaw when the TA was designing and building the Chrystie Street connection. Why not one engineer or planner thought about reconfiguring or modifying the layout in removing the I-beam side trackside supports, layout a provision, and putting a crossover switch west of Broadway-Lafayette between the S/B "F" and "D" tracks B1 and B3 is one of the better unanswered questions. There is one such switch between the N/B "F" and "D" tracks B2 and B4 previously in place west of Broadway-Lafayette, most likely when that section opened in January 1936. During the construction of Chrystie, the designers eliminated the switch between tracks B1 and B3 east of the station, causing B3 to ramp up and over B1. -William A. Padron ["BROADWAY"] |
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| (1607109) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by zac on Mon Aug 29 22:30:59 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Aug 29 21:33:02 2022. I used to change at Bleeker/Bway-Laf all the time and was looking at how they built Chrystie St without disturbing the original B1 track and traffic. What they did of course was to ramp up the express tracks to mezzanine level and also have the third track come from Essex. There was enough room to do that without disturbing the street. Chrystie St itself was demolished for the Cross Manhattan Expwy and the subway was built under it, and now we have that linear park. During the construction of the Bleeker St NB connection a lot of the original Bway-Lafayette station was reexposed that was probably shut down in the 50s. Some provisions were made for the 2nd Ave subway that were never used too, you can see ramps just north of Grand St. It is unclear whether anything more ever was built there, such as a second station under the current Grand St, or on the outside behind the walls. It is well hidden if it were. |
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| (1607113) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 30 02:50:21 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Aug 29 21:33:02 2022. I have studied the track configuration S/O Bway/Laf and from what I was able to se is that the TA could have retained the diamond Xover between B1 and B3 S/O the station and started the upgrade at the S/E of the Xover. Some “suit” might argue differently but the fact that the N/B BJ2 tk from the Willy B line connects to the N/B lcl B2 tk at the S/E of the station seems to indicate differently. |
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| (1607117) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by zac on Tue Aug 30 05:55:56 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 30 02:50:21 2022. Maybe they felt that the grade going up would be too steep? This is a smooth transition that you don't feel when going either direction. But something should have been done to allow that move in any case. |
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| (1607120) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Q4 on Tue Aug 30 08:25:30 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Mon Aug 29 22:30:59 2022. There isn’t a second station or provision for one under the current Grand St. Station. They might be provisions for a trackway behind the wall of each platform (with the platform extending underneath the “false” wall like they did with both levels of the 63rd and Lex Station)for eventual use by the Second Ave. Subway. Of course the current “preferred” plan for Phase IV of the Second Ave. Subway is to build a station for it underneath the current Grand St. Station. Of course chances are they will still be talking about Phase IV in 50 years as nothing will have been done on it (and Phase III for that matter). |
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| (1607121) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue Aug 30 09:02:30 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Q4 on Tue Aug 30 08:25:30 2022. no false walls at grand st,just two side platforms. |
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| (1607124) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Displaced Angeleno on Tue Aug 30 09:37:13 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Mon Aug 29 22:30:59 2022. > Chrystie St itself was demolished for the Cross Manhattan Expwy and the subway was built under it, and now we have that linear park.Sara D. Roosevelt park dates back to the 1930s when the city purchased the land to widen Forsyth and Chrystie Streets (the city also widened Allen Street to the east around the same time). The remaining land was supposed to be used for housing, but that never materialized and was instead used to build the park. |
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| (1607130) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 30 10:20:48 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Q4 on Tue Aug 30 08:25:30 2022. And that is why they would be better off revisiting the Nassau Street option. |
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| (1607131) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 30 10:34:07 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Displaced Angeleno on Tue Aug 30 09:37:13 2022. Correct. It had nothing to do with the LOMEX. |
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| (1607133) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Allan on Tue Aug 30 10:45:48 2022, in response to W 4th Street, posted by Baltimorerail on Mon Aug 29 18:50:02 2022. This might help a bit.https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?/img/trackmap/pm_lower_manhattan.png The X crossovers north of W4 are on the lower level - 6th Av line |
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| (1607136) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 30 11:46:28 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 30 10:20:48 2022. If you are talking about trains heading south on Nassau St from Christie St, that should have been built as part of the original plan. Too late now! |
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| (1607140) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 30 12:07:17 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 30 10:20:48 2022. No. The Nassau Line is a white elephant and there’s no need to keep coming up with ideas on how to justify it after 90 years. Just accept it as a sunk cost. |
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| (1607142) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Aug 30 12:53:07 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 30 10:34:07 2022. Does a Lorax use a LOMEX? |
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| (1607150) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 30 14:59:16 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 30 12:07:17 2022. In addition, the older stations at Canal and Chambers Sts would cost a lot of money to allow 10 car trains, assuming it could be done. Not sure about Fulton and Broad Sts. If you wanted these trains to use the Montague tunnel, a lot of electrical conduits would have to be relocated. One more thing- The waterproofing of Chambers St has not been done. |
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| (1607160) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 30 20:05:00 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Tue Aug 30 05:55:56 2022. If it’s not too steep for the N/B BJ2 tk coming off the Willy B why would it be too steep on the S/B side? |
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| (1607170) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by zac on Tue Aug 30 22:53:55 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 30 20:05:00 2022. Because it is a downgrade going from Essex into Bway-Lafayette. And the connection is complete just before entering the station. |
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| (1607175) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 31 01:15:30 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Tue Aug 30 22:53:55 2022. I know when they built the IND tried to limit upgrades to 3% and downgrades to 4%, but there are plenty of places especially on the BMT that have steeper upgrades and downgrades. They could still build a crossover from the S/B local to the S/B express track under Houston St west of B'Way Laf since there are only curtain walls separating the 2 tracks at a couple of locations. |
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| (1607180) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by zac on Wed Aug 31 05:54:54 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Displaced Angeleno on Tue Aug 30 09:37:13 2022. I guess you're right. I had always been under the impression that it was to be part of Lomex. Or maybe it was proposed since the space was there already? My father always told me that's what was happening when we drove through there. |
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| (1607181) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by zac on Wed Aug 31 06:00:35 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 31 01:15:30 2022. Yes, the BMT had steeper grades, and the BMT had to limit rolling stock from certain areas. The grade into the Manhattan Bridge comes to mind. While this connected the IND to the BMT it was still built to IND standards.It's been 55 years since it opened and they haven't built anything yet to correct it. I doubt they ever will. |
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| (1607188) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Aug 31 09:25:26 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by AlM on Tue Aug 30 12:53:07 2022. only during safe sex. |
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| (1607191) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 11:14:00 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Aug 31 09:25:26 2022. I hate safe sex because I can never remember the combination! |
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| (1607192) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 11:14:28 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Aug 31 09:25:26 2022. I hate safe sex because I can never remember the combination! |
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| (1607194) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 31 12:15:11 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Wed Aug 31 05:54:54 2022. It’s entirely perpendicular to the Lomex.The part of the Lomex that crosses the park was actually built in conjunction with the Christie Street Line and is still there underneath the park. |
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| (1607195) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 12:46:57 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 31 12:15:11 2022. How long is the tunnel? |
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| (1607199) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 31 13:20:37 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 12:46:57 2022. I think it extends the one block. |
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| (1607201) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by chicagoMotorman on Wed Aug 31 13:29:57 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by AlM on Mon Aug 29 18:58:25 2022. I've wondered that myself. Thanks. |
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| (1607202) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 13:36:47 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 31 13:20:37 2022. Thanks! |
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| (1607203) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Aug 31 14:13:51 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 11:14:28 2022. you start off with 69. |
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| (1607204) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Aug 31 14:17:31 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 12:46:57 2022. lomex is 60 feetx60x60x60 |
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| (1607205) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Aug 31 15:25:53 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Aug 31 14:17:31 2022. Wow! A 4-dimensional tunnel. |
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| (1607208) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 16:25:15 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Aug 31 14:13:51 2022. Not so sure about that, Steve. My friend passed away at 69- but what a way to go!!! |
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| (1607210) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 31 17:03:42 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by AlM on Wed Aug 31 15:25:53 2022. It is almost 60 in the fourth dimension, so correct. |
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| (1607213) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 31 19:07:01 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Tue Aug 30 22:53:55 2022. Exactly my point. Once all the tracks from Chrystie are lined up under Houston St they are all at the same grade till Bway/Laf which means that the Xover on the S/B side could have been retained. |
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| (1607217) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 31 19:37:41 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by AlM on Mon Aug 29 18:58:25 2022. When Houston St first opened, it was served by E trains that eventually went to Church Ave till 6th Ave opened. When 6th Ave opened, F trains went to Church Ave, E trains went to Bway/Laf (why not 2 Ave I don't know) and Ds went to Hudson Terminal alternating with AAs non rush and CCs in the rush. |
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| (1607221) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 31 20:31:27 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 31 19:07:01 2022. agree. retaing that x over and adding a parallel one NB should have been done |
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| (1607222) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 31 21:21:41 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 31 12:15:11 2022. How long is the tunnel? |
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| (1607225) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 1 02:11:06 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 31 20:31:27 2022. A N/B one wasn’t necessary since there is a diamond Xover between the N/B lcl and exp tk N/O the station as was usual IND practice. |
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| (1607248) | |
Re: W 4th Street - Southbound |
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Posted by Handbrake on Thu Sep 1 17:28:32 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Aug 29 21:33:02 2022. There was a diamond cross-over south of Broadway-Lafayette that was removed to permit the construction of the present ramp to Chrystie Street.Space where tracks B3, B4, and B5/6 (Middle) once were was recycled into today's ramp south of Broadway-Lafayette. There was no room for a fourth Brooklyn bound track connection to Essex Street, except the cut in the wall before Second Avenue. Unfortunately poor prior planning has resulted in the inability to send rerouted trains via 8th Avenue onto the Manhattan Bridge. As for Chrystie Street. North of Chrystie Street the tracks B3/B4 split into tow independent tunnels until they meet at the u/down ramp near Broadway-Lafayette. Reason, under the 1945, and later revised 1948 BoT plans to build a Second Avenue Subway, the present connection from the IND 6th Avenue line was a feeder to Second Avenue. The wide space just north of Chrystie Street between Tracks B3/B4 are bell mouths for future express track connections to Second Avenue. Chrystie Street as a four track station would feed 6th Avenue B3, and B4 tracks from either Second Avenue Express or local tracks. Provisions were made during the construction of the present Chrystie connection for turn outs to a future local track if all were built as planned. There are slopped outward indentations in tunnel walls on the side of the bench walkways of B3 and B4 at a point where both tracks span over the BMT Center Street subway in the vicinity of The Bowery station. According to Station Department station drawings, Chrystie Street civil construction is only two (2) track subway station. All platform walls are permanent, unlike the false walls at Lexington Avenue & 63rd Street when that station first went into service. The conversation of false platform walls at the present Chrystie Street station continues to surface incorrectly. |
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| (1607249) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Handbrake on Thu Sep 1 17:37:39 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 1 02:11:06 2022. The southbound platform of the Broadway Lafayette Street station could have been cut back to create additional room for a single cross-over from B1 to B3.There is considerable space on the north end of the southbound platform to move the SB station platform northward, however ejector and other equipment from rooms located on the SB platform's north end would need to be relocated at considerable expense. It all comes down to money. The BoT, later NYCTA, was a financial sick man and did not receive the financial subsidies that Transit receives today. |
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| (1607270) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 1 23:04:58 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by Handbrake on Thu Sep 1 17:37:39 2022. They could have built a crossover further south (geographic west) under Houston St without having to relocate the equipment rooms since there is only a curtain wall separating B1 and B3 at a couple of places. |
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| (1608301) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 22 01:52:00 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 1 23:04:58 2022. Even so, it's possible the tracks to Chrystie St are already on the way up, even though it's not visible from the curtain wall. |
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| (1608302) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 22 02:00:48 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 30 02:50:21 2022. There's one possible difference between BJ2 and B3: when BJ2 descends to meet the local track, they're right next to each other all the way down, which is why the switch can be located right outside the station. B1, on the other hand, has to close the distance with B3 before making a connection, which uses precious distance before the Chrystie St ramp. It would be similar to how the northbound crossover is handled. |
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| (1608340) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 22 14:28:25 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 22 01:52:00 2022. Since B1 & B3 are obviously on the same level at B'way/Laf, why should they be at different levels west of there? Check out this video, starting at 21:53. It was taken from a Brooklyn bound B on B3 under Houston St and shows B3 and B1 on the same level. |
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| (1608342) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 22 14:41:46 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 1 23:04:58 2022. I should have said "They could have built a crossover further north (geographic west) under Houston St without having to relocate the equipment rooms since there is only a curtain wall separating B1 and B3 at a couple of places." |
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| (1608360) | |
Re: W 4th Street |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 22 18:43:24 2022, in response to Re: W 4th Street, posted by zac on Wed Aug 31 06:00:35 2022. BX units (two BMT standards with a trailer sandwiched in between) were banned from the south side tracks because of that grade. Supposedly one would sneak through once in a while. |
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