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| 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane (1551974) | |
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| (1551974) | |
1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jul 1 17:20:01 2020 I found this image of IND substations, including planned lines, which includes the Fulton Street extension along Linden Boulevard, a further extension of the Concourse Line, and recapture of the Culver Line. Note the reference to the Maspeth Line (a.k.a. the Winfield Spur)    |
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| (1552003) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 00:46:57 2020, in response to 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jul 1 17:20:01 2020. From what I can see of that map, the original plan for further extension of the IND past Euclid was a slight southward bend onto Conduit Blvd (which if I can remember from looking at some maps was called Sunrise Hwy like its Nassau extension) instead of continuing straight down Pitkin. As I have mentioned in several posts on this subject originally, Pitkin Av ended at the Kings Co line and sometime prior to the IND subway construction was routed through private property to connect with Old South Rd at about 78 St. That is why the alignment of Pitkin as it currently exists bears slightly south since once through routed the entire avenue was renamed Pitkin and only a short section of Old South Rd between 75 St and 78 St retrained its original name. According to the latest Qns street map I have that short section of Old South Rd doesn’t even exist anymore. I suspect that the through routing of Pitkin eastward was done to facilitate the latest version of the alignment of the IND subway much the way 6 Av in Manhattan was cut through from W 3 St to Canal St to join Church St. The city did several demolitions like that such as widening Church and Lafayette Sts to facilitate subway construction. |
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| (1552024) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by zac on Thu Jul 2 08:22:56 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 00:46:57 2020. When I took a trip down Pitkin on my bike it did look like a few buildings facing the cross streets had at one time not been adjacent to Pitkin but had another building next to it that was removed. The buildings on Houston are like that. Pitkin is also wide there, much wider than the traffic would have ever required. It sure looks like it was done to build the subway underneath, but I wonder why they would do that if the subway was never actually built. This of course leads to the speculation... |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1552031) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 10:56:18 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by zac on Thu Jul 2 08:22:56 2020. Interesting. |
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| (1552033) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 11:10:54 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by zac on Thu Jul 2 08:22:56 2020. Built in prep for the subway construction. Could be there is a shell there. |
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| (1552034) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 11:11:43 2020, in response to 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jul 1 17:20:01 2020. I just wish we could somehow get past that damn wall and finally put an end to the mystery. |
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| (1552035) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Jul 2 11:19:48 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 00:46:57 2020. One block of South Road is still there between 76th and 77th. I was over there a few days ago checking out the partially submerged neighborhood known as The Hole, south of Conduit Ave. |
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| (1552044) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 2 13:08:14 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by zac on Thu Jul 2 08:22:56 2020. It's possible that the subway structure was built at least as far as 78 St as part of the road straightening project (why pave it just to dig it up again for construction, right?). It's also possible that the road was straightened but remained unimproved for some time in anticipation of subway construction, and was only paved once that fell through.I can't find my post on the subject, but I did some digging in the city tax maps and historical alteration books a few years back which suggested that quite a few plots along Pitkin were created in the late 1930s and early 1940s. |
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| (1552052) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jul 2 14:03:49 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 11:10:54 2020. You would think that if there was a shell, it would be inspected periodically. |
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| (1552053) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jul 2 14:04:17 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 11:11:43 2020. I'll second that! |
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| (1552054) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 2 14:05:22 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 11:10:54 2020. I think that most of us can agree on that one- I hope! Like the IND Utica line, south of Kings Hwy, there is a high water table under Pitkin, east of Euclid Ave. These plans were shelved because of the engineering requirements, Unification costs (acquisitions & demolitions) and WW2. |
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| (1552055) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 2 14:11:08 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 11:11:43 2020. Before we all die, I'd like to see some pics or proof of this incomplete station. It's sorta like the Angel Uriel with those golden tablets! |
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| (1552058) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 14:44:00 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 2 14:11:08 2020. You mean the 15 Commandments? |
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| (1552062) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jul 2 15:08:10 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jul 2 14:44:00 2020. The ones in "... reformed Egyptian", as mr Smith called them! |
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| (1552063) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 15:43:27 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Jul 2 14:03:49 2020. AFAIK, the Atlantic Av tunnel in downtown Bkln which we know with certainty does exist had never been inspected till Bob Diamond started his tours. I don’t even know how regularly, if at all, other structures that we do know exist like So 4 St are inspected. |
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| (1552064) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 15:46:40 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 2 13:08:14 2020. I tried checking NYC archives for info about the area and it seems that any photos of the area between about 1930 before Pitkin was through routed and 1950 well after it had been done are missing or otherwise unavailable. |
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| (1552070) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 16:31:30 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by sloth on Thu Jul 2 11:19:48 2020. That is interesting since even though the aerial view clearly shows it, my Hagstrom map book doesn’t show it at all. |
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| (1552071) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 16:32:02 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by sloth on Thu Jul 2 11:19:48 2020. That is interesting since even though the aerial view clearly shows it, my Hagstrom map book doesn’t show it at all. |
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| (1552072) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 16:40:30 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by sloth on Thu Jul 2 11:19:48 2020. Even though the street is physically there could it be possible that it was officially demapped? There are a few short streets here in Bay Ridge Bkln that physically exist, but are officially demapped meaning that they are not public thoroughfares as far as the city is concerned but are semi private or private streets. |
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| (1552078) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by zac on Thu Jul 2 18:13:20 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 15:46:40 2020. They were put in the locker at 76th St. station.I'm surprised with stay-at-home with Covid-19 there hasn't been a long discussion about 76th St. They've been beating the dead horses on every other bulletin board I frequent. |
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| (1552079) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Thu Jul 2 19:29:23 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 15:46:40 2020. They were teleported into another dimension. |
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| (1552081) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 2 19:54:30 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 15:46:40 2020. All part of the conspiracy. |
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| (1552082) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:04:10 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 15:46:40 2020.  Here is 77th Street, south at Pitkin Avenue, from 1935.
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| (1552083) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:05:38 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:04:10 2020. Here are some more images of Pitkin. |
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| (1552084) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:07:53 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by zac on Thu Jul 2 08:22:56 2020. Is this what you are referring to? |
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| (1552085) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:15:46 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by K. Trout on Thu Jul 2 13:08:14 2020. Like this? |
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| (1552086) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:16:25 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:15:46 2020. Let me try again. |
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| (1552088) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 21:27:22 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:04:10 2020. From the dates on the photos it seems to indicate that Pitkin was cut through around 1931 or so since before that the higher numbered streets would have been indicated as being on Old South Rd. |
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| (1552100) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Jul 3 01:30:00 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:16:25 2020. Exactly. Somewhere in the HABs I also recall seeing some lots eliminated in the 1930s as well.If memory serves I didn't find anything relating to the IND (usually labeled "rapid transit" or "BOT") on the Queens side of Pitkin. That doesn't rule out that the road might have been widened at some point - if the DOT (or predecessor) did it there might not have been any mention of the BOT connection. I'm not skilled enough at the terminology used in the HABs ("dropped in field"?) to understand what might be reference to a street modification. |
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| (1552102) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Jul 3 01:37:18 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 15:46:40 2020. I found a map dated 1921 showing the current alignment of Pitkin. Of course, this is likely only the plotted alignment, not reflecting anything actually on the ground yet. |
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| (1552105) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Jul 3 03:43:46 2020, in response to 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jul 1 17:20:01 2020. Is there any way to get a sharper image - when you enlarge the image for detail, all the station names, etc. blur.If this is the resolution for the original source as it appears on its specific website, then I guess not |
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| (1552111) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 07:28:41 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 2 21:27:22 2020. Here is an image of PS214 on Pitkin from 1930. |
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| (1552112) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 07:32:07 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 07:28:41 2020. What do you think about This theory about a tunnel being constructed as part of the school? |
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| (1552114) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 07:57:19 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Express Rider on Fri Jul 3 03:43:46 2020. Unfortunately, no. I am at the mercy of the person who listed this on eBay. Some of the other stations listed on the Fulton Street Extension beside Eldert Lane are Sutter Avenue, Woodhaven Boulevard and 105th Street, which would line up with the planned track map. Sutter Avenue station is renamed 84th Street, and Woodhaven Boulevard is renamed Cross Bay Boulevard. One of the stations on the Concourse extension is Boston Road. I can't read the others. |
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| (1552123) | |
Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 09:10:00 2020, in response to 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jul 1 17:20:01 2020. Annotations on this map show vents at Grant Avenue and Pitkin Avenue, and say roof of subway at surface north of Pitkin and portal of subway. Is this conclusive evidence that the tunnel goes this far? |
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| (1552124) | |
Map showing lots where yard leads would pass under |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 09:31:34 2020, in response to Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 09:10:00 2020.  This map from 1941 shows where the yard leads to Pitkin would be, but shows nothing about the line to 76th Street. |
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| (1552131) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by zac on Fri Jul 3 10:30:00 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jul 2 20:07:53 2020. Yep, like that. |
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| (1552134) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jul 3 10:42:48 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 2 19:54:30 2020. I am surprised that we haven't heard from the Tunnelrat on this one. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1552143) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jul 3 11:12:55 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jul 3 10:42:48 2020. TUNNELRAT HAS POSTED MANY,MANY MANY,TIMES ON THIS.WITH NUMEROUS ACCOUNTS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN THERE,INCLUDING A M/M WHO WAS A C/R AT THE TIME WHO TOOK A PUMP TRAIN BEYOUND THE CINDERBLOCK WALL AT THE CONDUIT-N- GRANT "FOR A DISTANCE"UNTILL THEY HIT WATER.i WILL POST NO MORE. |
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| (1552148) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 3 14:06:20 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 07:32:07 2020. Thats a new one! |
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| (1552149) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Jul 3 14:11:22 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 07:32:07 2020. That theory is exactly why I think it's possible that some tunnel structure could have been built by the DOT as part of a road project. It's also very plausible on its own as well. |
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| (1552150) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Jul 3 14:19:47 2020, in response to Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 09:10:00 2020. Unless I'm misunderstanding the alignment here, it looks like a diagram for the Liberty Av branch, which was always planned. The Pitkin-Liberty yard leads more or less give away that the as-built alignment was more or less the original plan. |
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| (1552151) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jul 3 14:35:50 2020, in response to Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 09:10:00 2020. We’ll never know until we get behind that wall. |
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| (1552153) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 3 14:49:18 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by sloth on Thu Jul 2 11:19:48 2020. My NYC Hagstrom 5 Borough Atlas has it listed as Belmont St/Av. |
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| (1552155) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 3 14:59:47 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jul 3 11:12:55 2020. I believe you, Brother! Do you know about where this high water table began? Like Utica Ave, south of Kings Hwy, the plans for a more expensive waterproof tunnel were deemed too expensive and shelved. |
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| (1552156) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jul 3 14:59:51 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 07:32:07 2020. IT WASN`T. I WAS IN THE SCHOOL AND WHAT YOU SEE FROM THE BASEMENT WINDOWS IS WHAT YOU GET.NO SUBBASEMENT. |
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| (1552157) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jul 3 15:05:04 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 3 14:59:47 2020. DUNNO.UNTILL MY GF`S COMPUTER CRASHED SEVERAL YEARS AGO I HAD 3 PHOTOS OF A T.A.CREW DRILLING ABOUT 10 FEET UP FROM THE CURTAIN WALL BELOW PITKIN AVE.CLEAR WATER WAS COMING OUT. |
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| (1552158) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 15:13:16 2020, in response to Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by K. Trout on Fri Jul 3 14:19:47 2020. This is at Pitkin though. |
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| (1552160) | |
Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 3 16:00:30 2020, in response to Re: 1938 NYC BOT document showing original plan for 76th Street as Elderts Lane, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jul 3 15:05:04 2020. Is that curtain wall right below Pitkin & S. Conduit? |
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| (1552161) | |
Re: Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 3 16:51:59 2020, in response to Possible Major Evidence of Tunnel To 76TH STREET!, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jul 3 09:10:00 2020. The current portal leaves Pitkin at Sheridan Ave, which is one block west (to the left) of this map. This looks like an early rendition of the current service. There had been an alternate plan to build the ramp along Crescent St, which would have involved rebuilding a small portion of the Fulton el, between Crescent and 75th St, and rebuilding the Grant Ave elevated station. |
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