German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor

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German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 1 23:15:45 2018 Deutsche Welle Last stop jail? How to deal with fare-dodgers in Germany Judges in Germany say prosecuting persistent fare dodgers is a waste of valuable official time and resources. But transport authorities maintain traveling without a ticket not a trivial offense. Carla Bleiker 02.01.2018 Taking a bus or tram in Germany without a valid ticket is a crime, according to Germany's criminal code. And it is one that could have severe consequences: 7,600 repeat offenders were sent to jail in 2016. When you get caught dodging a fare the first time, you will usually only have to pay a fee of €60 ($75). That also goes for minors who can be expected to know that they need a ticket to ride the bus, and for people who have a ticket for themselves, but not for their bike or large dog. If you get caught for a third time, you will be reported to the police. Then you either have to pay a higher fine, or go to jail for up to one year. From a purely practical standpoint, fare dodging is not exactly difficult in Germany. There is usually no barrier at the entrance of bus and tram stops, unlike in subway or tube stations in New York or London. You will not encounter the friendly conductors who check your tickets on every ride either. Even if you are a frequent public transport user, you might only see them a couple of times a year. But it is still illegal. There are stickers on buses, trams and stops to remind passengers in no uncertain words. And yet, calls for fare dodging to be downgraded from a crime to a misdemeanor are growing ever louder. Supporters of the move say that it would radically reduce the workload of police officers and judges. Peter Biesenbach, justice minister in Germany's most populous state North Rhine-Westphalia, said that over one-in-ten verdicts handed down in his state dealt with fare-dodgers. Biesenbach, a member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU), believes the judicial resources required would be better used to "take care of burglaries and handbag thefts." The German Association of Judges (DRB) hasn't said outright they plan to downgrade fare-dodging, but they are looking into it. They demand public transport authorities do more in the way of prevention. "Entrance checks are the best way to prevent fare-dodgers from riding trams and buses and to lighten the workload of the judiciary," the DRB said in a statement. "If transport authorities don't set up these entry checks for economic reasons, the taxpayer should not have to pay the price." 'There have to be clear consequences' On the other side of the tracks, the transport authorities vehemently oppose decriminalizing fare-dodging. Justice should not depend on the state budget, Oliver Wolff, director of the Association of German Transport Companies (VDV), told news agency DPA. "I find this to be a declaration of bankruptcy by the state," Wolff said. The VDV also claims that erecting entrance barriers would make little sense, since hop-on, hop-off busses and trams make up the bulk of public transport in Germany. Barriers would not work at stops that can be accessed from all different directions above-ground. The public need to be aware that fare-dodging is not to be taken lightly, Wolff said. "Riding without a valid ticket has to remain a crime according to the criminal code," he clarified. "There must be clear, deterrent consequences for people who continuously use services without paying for them. That's why a jail sentence is absolutely necessary as the final resort." Discussion in Berlin The VDV director is not too worried about overworked judges either. He points out that only a small fraction of fare-dodging cases ever get drawn out to a degree that would actually take up a lot of an attorney's or judge's time. According to Wolff, the 7,600 fare-dodgers sent to jail in 2016 amounted to a mere three percent of all those who had been reported for repeatedly riding without a ticket. Based on those numbers, "you really can't talk about the judiciary or the prisons being stretched too thin," Wolff said. Next Monday, Wolff, Biesenbach and other legal and transport experts will debate the issue at a public panel discussion in Berlin. How it will develop from there is not yet clear. So to be on the safe side, passengers should probably just buy a ticket.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 2 10:21:05 2018, in response to German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 1 23:15:45 2018. If the railroad wants to collect a fare, then they should collect fares.Have a trainman punch tickets, or have an agent in the stations checking tickets a pax enter. THAT is not rocket science. If the railroad wants to do away with the fare collectors/inspectors because they cost too much, if they want to rely on the honesty of their riders, all well and good. But they cannot expect t recoup monies from fare beaters no matter what they may do. Let them collect fares in a proper way and be done with it. ROAR
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 2 10:35:16 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 2 10:21:05 2018. By that logic, we should have inspectors at every private driveway and parking lot to make sure cars have paid their registration taxes before they get on the road. You can't expect to fine people for having unregistered cars once they are already driving.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Feb 2 10:38:27 2018, in response to German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 1 23:15:45 2018. Isn't a misdemeanor a type of crime? It is in the U.S., maybe the terminology is different in Germany.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by pragmatist on Fri Feb 2 11:04:31 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Feb 2 10:38:27 2018. In the US, standard definition of a crime is a misdemeanor or felony. Many jurisdictions have another category such as "violation" or "traffic offense" to cover activities that are not legal, but are not considered crimes. An example (in NY) would be trespassing, which in its lowest form is a violation, not a crime, but depending on various factors can also be an A or B misdemeanor, which are crimes. If you are on my property, you are trespassing, if I tell you to leave and you refuse, now you are likely committing criminal trespass.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 2 11:13:05 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 2 10:35:16 2018. No; that is not a parallel situation. There are no places where cars do not have license plates and registration stickers.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 12:17:32 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 2 10:21:05 2018. But they cannot expect t recoup monies from fare beaters no matter what they may do. Why is it wrong for them to try?
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by BILLBKLYN on Fri Feb 2 12:21:29 2018, in response to German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 1 23:15:45 2018. Hmmmm.... I wonder what brought THIS about?
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by sloth on Fri Feb 2 12:45:05 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 2 10:21:05 2018. Lion, you have a point there. A turnstile that is being watched, or an onboard collector, is a reasonably effective barrier. It had not occurred to me to evade the fare here in NYC, even when my resources were not what they are now. If a transit authority wishes to outsource their fare enforcement-- and I'm sure this resulted in a net loss of jobs held by humans-- they can't expect other agencies to pick up their bag for them. It seems that their fare inspectors are stretched far too thin to effectively police the system, and that fine for the first offense is negligible.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Feb 2 14:42:40 2018, in response to German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 1 23:15:45 2018. The solution is less of a punishment with more enforcement. Doesn't Germany like make work projects?
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 2 15:07:46 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Feb 2 14:42:40 2018. Nah, higher for both. In Melbourne the fare inspectors made some sweet cash after busting three teenagers who didn't tap in to the Metro system, to the tune of $200 AUD each. They also publicly embarrassed them when they started to complain ("All these people have paid their fare, and you lot haven't. Why do you get to ride on their backs?").
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 15:24:18 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by sloth on Fri Feb 2 12:45:05 2018. I don’t know how effective the POP is on the LA MTA but when I was there a few years ago for the ERA convention one of the stations had members of both the LAPD and the LA County Sheriff’s dept checking for paid fare receipts. If local law enforcement is involved along with the actual personnel of the transit agency then enforcement is easier and not that costly to the transit agency.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 3 02:27:12 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Feb 2 14:42:40 2018. Doesn't Germany like make work projects? Compared to say, the Italians (or the French), the Germans are probably the least likely to use "make work" projects.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 3 02:40:54 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 2 10:21:05 2018. Let them collect fares in a proper way and be done with it. Overpaying warm bodies to collect tickets on every train when most people have weekly, monthly, or yearly passes or babysit a turnstile is probably not the best way to do things. The entire German transport network relies on barrier free access and POP, and it's probably one the best things I love about Germany. Buses and light rail vehicles load faster, there's no weird card reader problem at turnstiles, and transfers between modes are seamless.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 3 10:31:10 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 12:17:32 2018. Sure they can try. And the Judge can toss the case out if they wish. The North Dakota Attorney General will not prosceuit a bad check case unless the propitor collects ID information. ROAR
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 3 10:32:59 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 15:24:18 2018. But it is costly to the agecies that provide the checks. Point Moot since transit and police come from the same county. ROAR
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 3 10:34:25 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 3 02:40:54 2018. If they find that works best for them, so be it, bujt don't come to the courts to collect your scalliwag fares. Or that is what the judge said. ROAR ROAR
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 3 12:08:55 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Feb 2 15:07:46 2018. The courts there will get sick of this too.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 3 12:11:25 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 3 02:27:12 2018. More like less likely. If they were "the least likely", then Deutsche Bahn would be fully privatized.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 3 12:12:22 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 3 02:40:54 2018. The entire German transport network relies on barrier free access and POP . . . and it's a failure.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 3 14:06:29 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 3 12:12:22 2018. . . . and it's a failure. Because low use American public transit has a better solution? Kids sneaking onto the back of the bus and hopping turnstiles with no cops nearby? Expensive conductors that consume scarce operating funds? Slow loading buses with longer dwell times that make bus ridership decrease in the long-term? Expensive fare equipment that requires expensive labour to maintain the machinery?
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 3 19:44:32 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 3 10:32:59 2018. But the police and sheriff’s deputies are not [paid for by the transit agency itself do not cost to the agency.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 4 01:19:51 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 3 14:06:29 2018. Rhetorical reply. The courts in Germany have spoken. So has the fare recovery ratio, despite your invalid criticism.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 4 10:20:47 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 3 19:44:32 2018. Correct, but if the transit agency and the officers are both paid for by the county, it is just a matter of assigning the numbers to different accounts. Of course I should hop that officers are paid more than fare collectors, but..., ROAR
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by orange blossom special on Sun Feb 4 15:55:50 2018, in response to German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 1 23:15:45 2018. Is this due to the rapefugees? This looks a lot like how France has decided to stop prosecuting shoplifters since there's too many of them now.
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Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor
Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 4 22:59:52 2018, in response to Re: German judges say prosecuting POP fare evasion wastes time; downgrade from crime to misdemeanor, posted by orange blossom special on Sun Feb 4 15:55:50 2018. Is this due to the rapefugees? I doubt it.
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