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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 20 21:03:38 2017, in response to G Train Loop, posted by BusRider on Tue Jun 20 20:37:52 2017. If such an article exists, Gold_12th would have posted it. |
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| (1440243) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Tue Jun 20 21:13:39 2017, in response to G Train Loop, posted by BusRider on Tue Jun 20 20:37:52 2017. Nohttps://ny.curbed.com/2015/10/1/9915452/what-if-the-g-train-actually-went-to-manhattan |
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| (1440244) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 20 21:39:08 2017, in response to G Train Loop, posted by BusRider on Tue Jun 20 20:37:52 2017. No. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jun 20 22:00:44 2017, in response to G Train Loop, posted by BusRider on Tue Jun 20 20:37:52 2017. Only with 2 reverse moves. |
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| (1440250) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 20 22:26:12 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Snarf368 on Tue Jun 20 21:13:39 2017. link |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jun 20 22:38:16 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jun 20 22:00:44 2017. Would one be at Hoyt Schermerhorn, I assume. Where would the other one be? |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Wed Jun 21 00:35:23 2017, in response to G Train Loop, posted by BusRider on Tue Jun 20 20:37:52 2017. No it's not possible (with current infrastructure) without and reverse move somewhere. |
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| (1440256) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Wed Jun 21 00:37:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jun 20 22:38:16 2017. G to Queens Plaza changes ends on spur track then head to Manhattan. |
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| (1440261) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 06:59:32 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jun 20 22:38:16 2017. Would one be at Hoyt Schermerhorn, I assume.No. Try Bergen St or Smith-9th. There's no connection between the G and A/C tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn or anywhere else. |
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| (1440263) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 07:24:45 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Wed Jun 21 00:35:23 2017. Reverse moves should not preclude routing, if proper precautions are taken. (Such precautions are not possible in this case.)Two examples of reverse moves from the past are: the Rockaway Round Robin Shuttle - Euclid to Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway; and the BMT Queensboro Service - Main St to Queensborough Plaza to Astoria. Here are three examples of special routing as a result of track work. Before the present crossover was installed between 33rd St and Queensboro Plaza and before it was acceptable to truncate the 7 to operating between Main St and Queensboro Plaza, the procedure was for single track operation between 33rd St and Hunters Pt Blv. 7 trains left 33rd St on the local track then then reverse moved back onto the express track and then reverse moved onto the Queens bound track. This was two reversals between 33rd St and Queensboro Plaza. Two T/O's were used. The TA built a crossover, at considerable expense but now truncates the line, removing the incentive for the considerable expense that was incurred. When the Clark St tunnel was closed, 2/3 expresses would switch to the local at Chambers and go around the South Ferry loop to Bowling Green. They would switch directions and proceed to Brooklyn via the Joralemon St tunnel. A similar strategy was employed, when the Joralemon St tunnel was closed. When the Manhattan Bridge was closed (before the big closure) D trains would proceed from Bway-Lafayette to Essex St, then relay beyond the station and proceed via Nassau St and the Montague St tunnel into Brooklyn. A current example of a reverse move is the late night and weekend PATH service: 33rd St to Hoboken to Journal Sq. In most of these cases, the reversal occurs within a station. Both G train reversals must occur as a the result of a relay, outside a station. This presents a problem because either an additional T/O is required or T/O's must overcome their phobia of confronting passengers. This phobia is what led to the current fumigation policy. |
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| (1440274) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by BusRider on Wed Jun 21 09:29:19 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 20 21:03:38 2017. It was a snippet around page 3 bottom page. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 21 10:54:26 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 07:24:45 2017. If a G reverse move via a relay occurs, there would be no need to fumigate the train. The trains would immediately relay with a full train of passengers who want to continue their journey, not get off as in a typical terminal relay. It would be stupid to make the passengers leave the trains only to have them immediately reboard it. |
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| (1440293) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 21 11:51:25 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 07:24:45 2017. From a previous message:"When the Clark St tunnel was closed, 2/3 expresses would switch to the local at Chambers and go around the South Ferry loop to Bowling Green. They would switch directions and proceed to Brooklyn via the Joralemon St tunnel. A similar strategy was employed, when the Joralemon St tunnel was closed." Taking the statements apart: "When the Clark St tunnel was closed, 2/3 expresses would switch to the local at Chambers and go around the South Ferry loop to Bowling Green. They would switch directions and proceed to Brooklyn via the Joralemon St tunnel." Mike notes - when this was done it was during the midnight hours when it was only the #2 train that did the "loop" move through the Bowling Green station with the #2 train stopping at the Wall Street station before traveling to Brooklyn on the usual Joralemon tunnel track. Sometimes this procedure would be used for one direction (say downtown) while uptown #2 trains would proceed through the Clark Street tunnel normally, or in both directions depending upon the work needed to be performed. There were a number of times when #2 and #5 trains were involved with the loop operation where #5 trains would remain in Manhattan traveling downtown by Lexington Avenue and uptown via the west-side - while #2 trains traveled downtown & via the loop operation to Brooklyn, and then uptown on Lexington Avenue. That kind of operation could also be reversed with #5's traveling downtown - westside & uptown east-side, with #2's traveling downtown Lexington Avenue to Brooklyn and uptown west-side via normal Clark Street tunnel passageway. When the full-length #1 new terminal at South Ferry was open - the MTA simply had an out-of-system transfer between the northern most entrance of that station and the southern-most entrance and head house of the Bowling Green station - since these entrances are a direct sight line away from each other. Again this was during the midnight hours. The MTA has also used the out of system transfer between the #1 Rector Street station and the Bowling Green station - a shorter walking distance, and recently an out-of-system transfer between the #1 South Ferry loop platform station and the #4 & #5 at Bowling Green - a good walking distance. ------ "A similar strategy was employed, when the Joralemon St tunnel was closed." Mike notes - The MTA did not send #4 trains around South Ferry then up to Chambers Street, then reversed ends and sent that #4 train to Brooklyn by the Clark Street tunnel. Generally if there were work on the Joralemon Street tunnel, the MTA simply ended the #4 trains at Bowling Green, often at Brooklyn Bridge. Several times, J-trains out of Chambers Street/Brooklyn Bridge was tasked with taking #4 riders to/from Atlantic Avenue, riders were directed to use the R-train between lower Manhattan and Atlantic Avenue. There have been a number of times during the midnight hours when the MTA operated #4 trains within the Joralemon Street tunnel as a single track operation - basically telling riders to use the same platform at Bowling Green for BOTH directions. The MTA treats the Lexington Avenue line and the N-Q-R Broadway line as alternatives to each other when it comes to downtown Financial District and travel to/from Brooklyn. Usually the #4 train will either end at Brooklyn Bridge (via local) or Bowling Green with riders implored to change to the N-Q-R at 14th Street-Union Square, at Canal Street, etc. On the street there will be signage showing the alternative stations. If the #5 train is running during those hours it would often end at 42nd Street-Grand Central Station. I have seen, participated in, and read about each of these operations over the decades. Mike |
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| (1440302) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 21 14:14:49 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 21 10:54:26 2017. Since southbound "G" trains now run to Church Ave, are you suggesting that they relay at Smith-9th Sts, before heading north to Jay St and Manhattan. The only other thing is to have switches either just east or west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Trouble is that, by the time they finished the switches, the "L" tunnel project would be completed! |
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| (1440304) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 21 14:26:51 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Wed Jun 21 00:37:04 2017. That would involve crossing over or using 5 tracks; 2 eastbound, the center tailtrack, and the 2 westbound tracks. Everybody okay with that one? |
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| (1440309) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:19:57 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 20 22:26:12 2017. DOA. Billions and billions to build new tunnels to make those connections. |
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| (1440310) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Allan on Wed Jun 21 15:22:54 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 21 14:26:51 2017. I don't think the MTA (or the riders) would be happy having a train with passengers sitting on the tailtrack waiting to get the line up. |
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| (1440311) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:26:26 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 07:24:45 2017. Don't give me this crap about t/o's phobia of confronting passengers and the fumigation policy. The passengers did it to themselves by assaulting t/o's, especially females when they relay trains, and by pulling emergency cords when they get confused that the train suddenly changed directions.I was a t/o for 33 years. If I was afraid of passengers or had a phobia I would of had no business in doing what I did for so long. |
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| (1440313) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Allan on Wed Jun 21 15:29:20 2017, in response to G Train Loop, posted by BusRider on Tue Jun 20 20:37:52 2017. It was suggested by a REPUBLICAN mayoral hopeful named Paul Massey.I'll bet that he never even rode on the subway. For reasons that have already been covered by others, anyone with half a brain knows it can't happen but then agian - he is a politician (and a republican one at that). |
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| (1440317) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 21 15:33:31 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:26:26 2017. The passengers did it to themselvesYou mean certain violent passengers caused the problem for all passengers. It's not as though passengers did it to themselves. I as a passenger am not responsible for what some violent jerk does to a conductor. |
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| (1440320) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:43:09 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 21 15:33:31 2017. True but how is the t/o supposed to know who's good and who's bad? That's why trains are fumigated.I (and all current and past t/o's) must apologize for wanting to go home to my family every night without being injured or robbed on the job. |
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| (1440321) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 21 15:58:35 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:43:09 2017. I understand the policy. I as a passenger don't accept any blame for the policy. I am NOT doing it to myself. |
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| (1440322) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by sloth on Wed Jun 21 16:11:21 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:26:26 2017. It's good to know whenever I need my fix of operating employee bashing disguised as a nonsensical suggestion, I can come here! |
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| (1440324) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 21 16:30:38 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 07:24:45 2017. From a previous message:"In most of these cases, the reversal occurs within a station." ------- During the mid-1970's one day there was an interesting G.O. on the #4 line near the 167th Street elevated station. Due to track work or something going at 161st Street-Yankee Stadium, uptown #4 trains left the 149th Street-Grand Concourse station on the middle track. The train having by-passed the 161st Street-Yankee Stadium station was on course to by-pass the 167th Street station, but I heard the conductor clearly announce that the next stop would be 167th Street! I was curious because that uptown #4 train DID by-pass the 167th Street station, and then stopped! Then the train started to REVERSE ITSELF - I realized by taking the switch track - to proceed BACKWARD WITH PASSENGERS into the 167th Street station platform, where it opened its doors as usual. Then that #4 uptown train then proceeded on its merry way to Wood-lawn Road! I remember that some of the other passengers on board were shocked that the train reversed itself - but I found the whole trip "interesting." Mike |
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| (1440328) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 17:15:51 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 21 15:58:35 2017. I'm not blaming you, but in life itself rules are made because others did bad things. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by murray1575 on Wed Jun 21 17:23:46 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 21 16:30:38 2017. That is unusual but it was made possible by the turnouts the Polo Grounds shuttle trains used to relay after stopping at the 167th St. station. They were not used in the last months the shuttle operated since the southbound track was abandoned due to only one train running on the line. |
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| (1440339) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 21 19:37:54 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 17:15:51 2017. "This is why we can't have nice things." |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 21 23:41:35 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:43:09 2017. the problem with fumigation is that it causes terminal delays and actually puts staff at more risk of conflict with passengers.The fumigation process is an interaction between personnel and passengers and that can lead to conflict. |
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| (1440356) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 00:00:36 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 07:24:45 2017. Fumigation isn't a phobia and potentially one of rhe most dangerous parts of the job. Countless customer/TO conflicts happen during attempts to fumigate a train. |
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| (1440357) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 00:00:39 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 07:24:45 2017. Fumigation isn't a phobia and potentially one of rhe most dangerous parts of the job. Countless customer/TO conflicts happen during attempts to fumigate a train. |
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| (1440358) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Thu Jun 22 00:23:41 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 00:00:39 2017. Countless customer vs TO/CR* conflicts happen during attempts to fumigate a train.Just a minor edit ;)... |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 01:21:45 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Thu Jun 22 00:23:41 2017. True true. I meant the T/O bc they that's really the only time their required to interact with the public and most likely encounter a crazy person. C/R on the otherhand it's only one instance they have to interact with the public. I'd say they are more vulnerable when their head is out the window observing the platform. Much respect to CR's it takes a special kind of patience esp during delay. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jun 22 01:41:57 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 00:00:39 2017. which is why it's safer to to into the relay with a package then it is to clean out a train at a terminal. |
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| (1440366) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:33:22 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:26:26 2017. Don't give me this crap about t/o's phobia of confronting passengers and the fumigation policy. The passengers did it to themselves by assaulting t/o's, especially females when they relay trains, and by pulling emergency cords when they get confused that the train suddenly changed directions.The G relays being discussed here would be in regular service. The train would be filled with passengers who are expecting the direction change. This is not the same encounter that might be expected during a relay after a terminal station. I was a t/o for 33 years. If I was afraid of passengers or had a phobia I would of had no business in doing what I did for so long. Evidently your successors have a more than slightly different opinion. :=) The cost associated with fumigation is a drastically reduced terminal capacity. That reduced terminal capacity is reflected in fewer and more crowded trains. |
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| (1440368) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:36:21 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:43:09 2017. I (and all current and past t/o's) must apologize for wanting to go home to my family every night without being injured or robbed on the job.There's a fairly simple solution to their plight. When was the last time you encountered an elevator operator? |
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| (1440369) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:40:42 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Allan on Wed Jun 21 15:29:20 2017. Even that REPUBLICAN politician, who may never have ridden a subway, knows that shutting down the L train isn't a viable option. That's something that's escaped MTA management and the Democrat politician who appoints its board members and the Republican politicians who must approve them. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 09:11:44 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:36:21 2017. When was the last time you encountered an elevator operator?About a month ago. |
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| (1440378) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jun 22 09:26:50 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 21 23:41:35 2017. To fumigate, Use an annoying chime or chirping similar to an alarm clock, followed by an announcement "next and last stop, all passengers please depart the train, this train going out of service!And repeat , repeat, repeat, so passengers will flee the annoying chimes and chirping they have NO control of. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jun 22 09:36:25 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:40:42 2017. What would you do then? |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jun 22 10:18:02 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Allan on Wed Jun 21 15:29:20 2017. And this proposed idea was VERY ill-conceived:A better solution to me is to have the (G) (M) and (R) all go to 179 as locals while the (F) is express the whole way with allowances that any local train can and will as needed be moved to the express track after Parsons Boulevard (skipping 169) if there are a lot of locals in the area all at once. This allows the (G) to go to Queens Boulevard and more easily allow transfers to the (E) (M) and (R) there plus via a new OOS transfer between Queens and Queensboro Plaza the (7) (N) and (W) lines. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jun 22 10:47:25 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 21 23:41:35 2017. Disagree. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 10:52:50 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:33:22 2017. The cost associated with fumigation is a drastically reduced terminal capacity. That reduced terminal capacity is reflected in fewer and more crowded trains.Which line could have (and need) more trains if it weren't for clearing out passengers at the last stop? 71-Continental is usually cited as the worst issue for clearing out passengers, but the M and the R, at 10 tph each, are not accused of being overcrowded. I've also never heard that the J/Z would have more trains if not for issues at Broad Street. So what line is being limited? |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 11:25:18 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 09:11:44 2017. That should be the frequency that's required for on board operating personnel on subway trains. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 13:38:01 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jun 22 01:41:57 2017. Saved time too. The only problem is what if the package was sleeping wake up panic and pull the cord or attacks the T/O attempting to change ends. The later happened last yr at a Contental relay. Let's just say the T/O got the upper hand in that fight...lol |
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| (1440399) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 13:41:32 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 10:52:50 2017. Definetely the M and R esp late evenings when the lay ups start. Bad Conga lines develop. I'd also say the G at Church can back up the F if there's a passenger refusing to get off. However now they're letting packages syay on relays if an employee's in the car with em. Don't agree with that at all. |
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| (1440400) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 13:43:55 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jun 22 09:36:25 2017. What would you do then?Build a third tube. The shutdown will cost L train users in total, more than the cost of that third tube. The result is that the money will have been spent with no resulting infrastructure addition. |
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| (1440401) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 13:50:40 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 21 14:26:51 2017. No it would passengers would save time crossing over to the manhattan bound trains at Q Plaza than sitting in a relay. |
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| (1440402) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 22 13:52:07 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 13:43:55 2017. Build a third tube? How many years did it take to build the 63rd St tunnel? Seriously? |
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| (1440405) | |
Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 13:59:06 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 13:41:32 2017. Definetely the M and R esp late evenings when the lay ups start.You're talking about something different from Stephen. He said more trains would be run, but they can't because of clearing and relaying trains. You're saying the trains that they do run take longer than expected to get to their destination. I'm not questioning your issue. |
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