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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 12:44:00 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 3 20:17:41 2016. No it isn't. But what would you know? You still love statists and statism. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 12:44:50 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 07:07:15 2016. Four miles? Sounds like the max range, but not for all bike riders obviously. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 4 12:45:32 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 12:43:49 2016. Reality. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 12:47:33 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 4 12:45:32 2016. I think I do have a grasp on reality. Thus when I am frank about it, those that think stuff like this streetcar line will happen typically freak out. $156 million per mile, really? when other streetcars in other cities have been done for $10 million per mile? |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Feb 4 14:14:40 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by WillD on Thu Feb 4 03:12:27 2016. Seriously? I don't care how much of a breeze there is, riding a bike requires far more exertion than standing at the stop and you will sweat far more. Not even comparable. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 4 15:02:16 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 4 10:21:26 2016. Which is why we need a 2d Ave. subway. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 4 15:02:44 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 4 12:20:46 2016. Yes it has. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 4 15:02:59 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 4 12:42:06 2016. Yes, I know that is your claim, but it's still a fallacious argument. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 4 15:41:30 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 4 15:02:16 2016. Heh. But 2nd Ave has about 5-10 times the population in the blocks on either side of it that a Brooklyn-Queens waterfront trolley would have. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 4 15:55:46 2016, in response to DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 3 18:33:18 2016. The problem that I have with this concept is that it's based again on crypto-real estate speculation like many other streetcar ideas being floated around, while in Europe, streetcars are used to replace heavily used bus routes. In other words, anything we're trying to turn into a Select Bus Service route is what we should be turning into a streetcar. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose incredibly-expensive streetcar line |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 4 16:18:51 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose incredibly-expensive streetcar line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 4 03:49:55 2016. construction requires working around a LOT of other infrastructure and other high costs. New York City ain't Portland either. Laying track through nowhere is cheap.To be honest, Paris opened up a subway extension that cost nearly $250/mile, so we should be a bit cautious in saying that stuff is automatically expensive. Olog is probably the worst person to make these arguments given his political sentiments, but there are some people on the advocacy side who are concerned about the high costs of capital and operating service to get anything resembling transit in Anglo-Saxon societies, and especially in the worst case situation of New York. The man's a crank, but he has a bit of a point, and the reason that the Europeans can provide so much transit is because they simply get more for their money. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 16:52:37 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 4 08:27:26 2016. It's an economic development tools as well.Taking circuitous subway rides to the G and back or to Manhattan and back obviously is not very effective. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 16:56:19 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 16:52:37 2016. No streetcar that costs $156 million per mile is an "economic development tool." |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose incredibly-expensive streetcar line |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 17:01:15 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose incredibly-expensive streetcar line, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 4 16:18:51 2016. Olog is probably the worst person to make these arguments given his political sentimentsPlease don't make prejudiced statements like that, especially since you have zero understanding of my "political sentiments". he has a bit of a point, and the reason that the Europeans can provide so much transit is because they simply get more for their money They do hold costs down, to a degree. But not perfectly. Also, their micromanaging style with respect to railroads keeps so much freight traffic off the rails. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 17:23:55 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 16:56:19 2016. I didn't say do it, but I think worth looking into more to see costs and benefits. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 17:25:05 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 12:44:50 2016. I do not know why every time a rail line issue comes up, and some people don't want it, the conversation diverts to a silly one about Citibike. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose incredibly-expensive streetcar line |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 4 17:31:18 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose incredibly-expensive streetcar line, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 17:01:15 2016. Please don't make prejudiced statements like that, especially since you have zero understanding of my "political sentiments".Why shouldn't I make such statements? Given your tendency to call Republicans "liberals", it's presumed that you're one of the few actual hardcore traditionalists that exist out there. But not perfectly. Also, their micromanaging style with respect to railroads keeps so much freight traffic off the rails. It's not so much micromanagement, as simply a choice note to ruin the passenger railway experience for freight traffic. As the open access operators and multi-system locomotives come on line and provide alternatives to state owned carriers and barriers at the frontiers are removed, along with increases to capacity, freight is growing in Europe. Mind you, it's still going to be easier in some cases to float what one is shipping via the ample waterways, or if the distance is short enough, to continue using trucks. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose Brooklyn-Queens streetcar line |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 4 18:01:13 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose Brooklyn-Queens streetcar line, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 12:38:47 2016. Think waivers! |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 4 18:05:27 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 3 20:07:35 2016. I would imagine that he is referring to “average” speeds. The average speed of a transit vehicle terminal to terminal includes the stops and dwell times as well as the actual motion of the vehicle whether it be a train, bus or streetcar. The actual speed of the cars between stops will be much higher. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Feb 4 18:09:39 2016, in response to DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 3 18:33:18 2016. Late to the party, but wouldn't expanding the East River ferry service accomplish the same thing plus a connection to Manhattan, for far less than $156 million per mile?Is having your head up your ass a pre-requisite for holding public office? |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 4 18:18:23 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by sloth on Thu Feb 4 18:09:39 2016. but wouldn't expanding the East River ferry service accomplish the same thing plus a connection to ManhattanGuess what the operating costs are of a ferry to Manhattan that's already slow and delivers you a far long walk away from useful things. There's a reason why NY Waterways charges $$$... |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Feb 4 18:23:46 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 3 19:11:31 2016. It's being presented as a method of getting from Brooklyn to Queens. We already have one underutilized method.Well, the G is close enough to the waterfront in Queens but the route veers too far east in Brooklyn. A lot of the development is along the waterfront and the G is too far. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 18:53:38 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Feb 4 18:23:46 2016. The LRT could replace some bus routes. Turn-about is fair play.It was Robert Moses and Mayor LaGuardia who wanted trolleys (and els) gone. Why continue their stupid legacy ? Buses don't re-gentrify areas. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 19:02:16 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by sloth on Thu Feb 4 18:09:39 2016. So to go to downtown Bklyn, you want us to take an expensive ferry to Manhattan from a given locale, make your way to the over-crowded Lex, only then to come back to Bklyn.Ridiculous. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by BMRR on Thu Feb 4 19:13:05 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Thu Feb 4 12:08:41 2016. And will it become trendy like MUNI? Better start looking forPCC cars to restore....... |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 20:00:19 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by BMRR on Thu Feb 4 19:13:05 2016. At this point, it's a wonder that nobody's tried to come up with a low-floor PCC lookalike. $156 million per mile could buy that no problem. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Feb 4 20:15:54 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 19:02:16 2016. I don't know where you got that out of what I wrote. The ferry service can be expanded. It can be subsidized to reduce the fares. It serves Manhattan, thereby killing two birds with one stone. It already exists, which is kind of a plus in terms of building costs. And pretty much every subway line stops in downtown Brooklyn already. Yes, this would be good for certain trips to downtown Brooklyn. Enough to justify the building costs, which almost always come in far higher than advertised? Not hardly. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose Brooklyn-Queens streetcar line |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 4 20:18:10 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose Brooklyn-Queens streetcar line, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 4 18:01:13 2016. Haha |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 4 20:19:38 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 3 19:39:28 2016. Wouldn't they be able to reduce bus service if they did that? |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 4 21:03:39 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 16:56:19 2016. Why not run a bus route on this proposed line to see if it's worth the investment? Maybe for free for the duration of the trail run. I can't see pissing away money on an underused trolley line, without some ridership data and local input. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Feb 4 21:06:23 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 4 18:18:23 2016. Clearly this is a problem that demands a different technology :) |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 4 21:23:53 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 4 21:03:39 2016. People who might readily ride light rail, might not be as attracted to any sort of a bus service even an SBS. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 4 21:27:56 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 4 21:23:53 2016. A free ride might bring 'em out! All they have to do is provide potential ridership input. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Feb 4 21:29:38 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by sloth on Thu Feb 4 20:15:54 2016. Ferries end up being incredibly low cost solutions when it comes to capital costs. Unfortunately, they tend to be incredibly high in cost when it comes to operating expenses. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Feb 4 22:17:32 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Feb 4 14:14:40 2016. But unless your origin and destination are the stops themselves you're going to end up walking some distance. I contend that if you walk at a relatively quick pace you're going to sweat more than if you had biked the trip. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Feb 4 22:24:48 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by zac on Thu Feb 4 06:33:44 2016. I can tell you that there is a big difference between standing around on a hot steamy day, and riding a bike on a hot steamy day, and an even bigger difference when it isn't hot and steamy.I did mention standing at the stop, but really it's the walk to and from the stops at either end of the trip which will get someone sweaty. I'd rather be riding my carbon fiber road bike up a mountain than riding a citibike on a level street. IMHO therein lies the problem. We don't always have to ride like we're in the Tour de France and by moving a bit more slowly if, say, commuting by bike you certainly end up a lot less sweaty. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Feb 4 22:33:53 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 07:07:15 2016. A whopping 4 or 5 miles? An easy 30-ish minutes on a bike? I'd gladly do that commute year round if the opportunity presented itself. Cycling in snow isn't that bad, and again, too much is made of the ills of cycling in the summer. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Feb 4 22:40:51 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by sloth on Thu Feb 4 20:15:54 2016. Another problem with Ferries, other than the high operating cost, is the inability to effectively utilize all the catchment area around the dock. Roughly half of the area within 1000 feet of the dock will be covered in water. That limits the number of possible passengers who have an easy walk to the ferry.Then there's the problem of how many actual job destinations are within an easy walk of the ferry landing at the other end of the trip. In Lower Manhattan this isn't a problem. But in Midtown the blocks between 3rd Ave and the East River tend to be more residential than commercial, so ferry passengers are forced to walk a fair distance to reach the easternmost job centers. Connecting transportation is key, but again that would raise the operating costs further. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 4 23:46:53 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 4 15:41:30 2016. And a streetcar has commensurately less capacity (and cost to build) than a subway line. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 5 00:56:20 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 4 12:44:00 2016. It's funny that when Bob Diamond proposed a Red Hook trolley he was always being put down and even when he had that trolley running the city did everything to shut it down which it did even removing the tracks, now this bafoon mayor brings this street car idea up like it was some new idea. I bet Bob Diamond is really pissed. Karl |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 5 00:57:59 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 5 00:56:20 2016. And if only Bob could work and play well with others, it would have been up and running already. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 5 01:55:13 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 5 00:56:20 2016. buffoon? maybe,maybe not. Diamond failed at PR and schmoozing. If this Mayor can line up the ducks, NYC gets more transit. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Feb 5 02:15:58 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 4 07:07:15 2016. Why do all that work when you can let someone else do it for you?Sorry..biking is FUN if you are into it..but everyday as a mode of transportation even Sounds tiring. I own a bike..so does the wife... We use them when the weather is nice enough to enjoy them. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 5 02:56:48 2016, in response to DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by AlM on Wed Feb 3 18:33:18 2016. I just worked out some numbers.There are 356,795 people who live within 1/2 mile of one of the proposed streetcar stops. Of these, 328,996 already live within 1/2 mile of a subway station. This leaves only 27,799 additional people who will be within 1/2 mile of rail transit. There are 132,578 workers who live within 1/2 mile of one of the proposed streetcar stops and who also travel more than 1/2 mile to work. Of this total, only 11,236 also work within 1/2 mile of one of the proposed streetcar stops. Only 2250 would be traveling more than 4 miles. 8696 would be traveling between 1/2 and 4 miles. They will make better time by bike, without working up a sweat. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Tramrunner on Fri Feb 5 09:15:44 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 3 18:42:53 2016. Very good idea, I also believe that our current mayor is a railfan.The render appears very funny. Something (a must for light rail or streetcar). is apparently missing on that picture. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 5 10:56:32 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 5 00:56:20 2016. He's a buffoon for proposing new transit? Really? |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 5 11:00:05 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by WillD on Thu Feb 4 22:17:32 2016. I contend that if you walk at a relatively quick pace you're going to sweat more than if you had biked the trip.A person will expend about twice as much energy walking than biking over the same distance. Both the walker and biker are traveling at leisurely paces (2.5 and 10 mph, respectively.) The reason is the walker is constantly lifting his body weight with each step, albeit by a small distance. The bicycle supports the rider's weight. The biker need only overcome wind resistance. The mass the rider is pushing is air, not his own weight. There are two instances where the biker's weight must be overcome. The first is climbing a hill. The second is accelerating, where Newton's Third Law applies. |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 5 11:21:23 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 5 10:56:32 2016. He's a buffoon period not for transit but being a mayor who hasn't a clue how to run a city, the worst mayor New York had ...... Jenkins did a better job than this mayor has ever done. Karl |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Feb 5 11:43:25 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 5 11:21:23 2016. It is a regular thing to dislike the current mayor. Everybody liked the sarcasms of Guiliani & Bloomberg?Who's Jenkins? |
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Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 5 11:46:25 2016, in response to Re: DeBlasio to propose light rail line, posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 5 10:56:32 2016. No, he's just a bufoon who has no idea how to run a city. |
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