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| Re: Myrtle Avenue El (1343500) | |
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| (1344866) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Sun Mar 22 19:06:59 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 22 18:21:40 2015. I don't know the answer to that but it predates the myrtle el....its part of the old BRT mainline....park ave el, grand, Lexington, Broadway to van sicklen. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 22 23:19:48 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 21 20:24:47 2015. I guess then there was never the expected density there for a well used transit route. Interesting that it was built, and yet, no development (early 20th ct. that is), ever seemed to follow it - population growth, more apt. buildings, small business zones, nearby manufacturing zones (small - light industry etc.)I drove from one end of Lex. to the other in the mid 90s - was out that way driving back from the transit museum. Wanted to see if any Lex trackways remained in the infrastructure west of Gates. I didn't see any - maybe didn't look hard enough. I decided to drive south on the former el route. You're right no high traffic of any kind, residential. And still I thought, I bet if there were some kind of transit here, people would use it. I'm not in the transportation industry, so that was just my impression. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 22 23:42:17 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Mar 20 20:13:56 2015. "For her, the elevated tracks had grandeur" - everyone on this board knows what she is talking about. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 23 00:53:59 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 22 23:19:48 2015. The reason that the Brooklyn city fathers chose Lexington Ave was rooted in distrust for Long Island, especially Queens County, which included the present Nassau County. They feared that if a route had been built over Broadway or Fulton St back then, the el would just be a transit conduit for Long Island riders. That was the mentality of Brooklynites in the early 1880's- home rule. But, the Old Main Line and the subsequent expansion of new lines (Fulton St, B'way, Myrtle) caused a real estate boom in Brooklyn, so home rule distrust waned. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 23 02:08:59 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 23 00:53:59 2015. Thank you for the background. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 23 10:47:32 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Mar 20 20:13:56 2015. Exactly... its his own bigotry speaking for him,not to mention his lack of knowledge.The removal of the Lex and Myrtle elevated lines created a transit waste land that overnight became bus riders... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 23 13:56:27 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 21 20:53:42 2015. I never saw this in the media, before or after the Myrtle el's closing.The fact remains that the Myrtle Ave and the Lexington Ave els were closed due to low ridership. Fares on the Lex were collected on the train at night. Had there been decent ridership on the Myrtle, they could have refurbrished some R-12 or R-14 cars for service. As a subway/el train fan I would have loved it if they had kept the line in service. But, the reality is that the older Myrtle Ave el had outlived its usefullness. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 23 13:59:15 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 23 00:53:59 2015. You are welcome! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 23 18:06:45 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 23 13:56:27 2015. Who are you replying to? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 23 18:07:01 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 23 13:59:15 2015. Thanking yourself? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 23 18:49:45 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Mar 20 20:13:56 2015. Very interesting. It shows that the city paternalistically decided what was "good for" the neighborhood, while paying little to no attention to what the inhabitants wanted and needed.... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Mar 23 20:42:05 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Mar 20 20:13:56 2015. No one literally meant "nobody", but there surely weren't many, and that was the point. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 23 22:08:00 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Mar 23 20:42:05 2015. And if similar pessimism had been applied to the LL (when that was the correct route designation) we vwouldn't have the success the L is today. CTA made similarly stupid cuts of lightly used branches. Today Humboldt Park is gentrifying despite lack of rail transit. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Mar 23 22:24:29 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 23 22:08:00 2015. There's a big difference. The Canarsie Line was a modern subway capable of handling steel trains. The aging Myrtle south of Bway wasn't. Besides, it always had high ridership.BTW, I remembering railfanning both on the same days, the Myrtle for the Q's and the LL for the last remaining non shuttle line of all Standards. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Tue Mar 24 06:36:27 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 23 22:08:00 2015. And oh please. I am not condoning what happened, just stating the truth. Mo one made a fuss. What the F does that have to do with the L train? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Mar 24 14:41:29 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Mar 20 20:13:56 2015. That link you posted to was very well written.--Mark |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 24 15:50:21 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 23 10:47:32 2015. Wasteland? The Lexington el had the lowest ridership of any line, after WWII. Stations were unmanned at night and the fares collected on the train. I suppose that all of the whites who left the Lex/Myrtle areas were bigots for not enduring rising crime and declining home values? "Hey, let's leave these old structures up- these neighborhoods might come back in 2015- 70 years from now!" |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Mar 24 16:13:23 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 23 10:47:32 2015. I'm an elevated aficionado myself but don't you think that it's a tiny bit possible that part of the "resurrection" of these areas had to do with the lack of an el? There are lots of people who associate elevateds with undesirability (darker streets, increasing danger, etc.)Just throwing it out there. And I'm someone who would definitely have liked to see these els. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 24 16:27:59 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Mar 24 16:13:23 2015. That's entirety possible.Though,on the other hand,one can see massive amounts of growth along the Broadway and Myrtle El in the form of businesses and residential developments. Its the approximation of such rapid transit facilities that spur growth.-. The removal of them,without adequate replacement, only added to the downward spiral-. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 24 17:03:42 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 24 16:27:59 2015. It worked that way along Roosevelt Ave under the Flushing Line out in Queens.The area from 61-Woodside to Junction Blvd is thriving! Not one voice (AFAIK)is crying out for El removal. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 24 17:32:28 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Mar 23 22:24:29 2015. Between Bway and Bridge St is railroad NORTH and the direction of the current M Line bears this out since Metro is the SOUTH terminal of the line. Even the track numbers of even numbers for northbound and odd numbers for southbound indicate the proper direction. |
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| (1345129) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:03:01 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 24 16:27:59 2015. No one is sorrier than Mr the myrtle was demolished.....but let's get real here....the neighborhood along the lower myrtle was a disaster even before the el came down.....the area along Broadway continued and did fall hard all around it....all with the el still running. Mye would have fallen with or without the el |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:05:41 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 24 17:03:42 2015. Its a different era.don't confuse the 60s with the present. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:08:15 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 24 17:32:28 2015. Was that true before the m train rerouteiin 2010? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 20:16:26 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Mar 23 20:42:05 2015. There were plenty, according to the linked article. It's just that they weren't white so they didn't count to the powers that be. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:18:03 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 20:16:26 2015. Oh please, and it wasn't many. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 20:21:42 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:18:03 2015. Did you read the article?Big housing projects were going up on Myrtle Avenue at the same time the el was being closed. Do you seriously think that there wasn't a protest against closing it? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:29:25 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 20:21:42 2015. Who said there wasn't any opposition? Do you have trouble reading? I said there weren't many. Unfortunately there weren't. This is the same generation that let Penn Station fall. There were some slight opposiotion to that too....but not many either.Do you think any more cared about the myrtle? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 24 20:56:24 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:29:25 2015. Those two things are not at all related. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Tue Mar 24 21:02:57 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 24 20:56:24 2015. They aren't.....however, where did I say 'no one'? Why are asberger railfans so defensive if someone says something like " there wasn't much oppositiin? There wasn't. That isn't to say no one an d that isn't r"racist" to say.It's unfortunately the truth. And yes that was the feeling at the time and yes, at show Penn Station is involved. It was an out with the old, in with the new mentality in that era and yes, that's the same era that lost Penn Station. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Tue Mar 24 21:04:08 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 24 20:56:24 2015. They aren't.....however, where did I say 'no one'? Why are asberger railfans so defensive if someone says something like " there wasn't much opposition? There wasn't. That isn't to say no one and that isn't "racist" to say.It's unfortunately the truth. And yes that was the feeling at the time and yes, thats how Penn Station is involved. It was an out with the old, in with the new mentality in that era and yes, that's the same era that lost Penn Station. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Tue Mar 24 21:05:30 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Tue Mar 24 21:04:08 2015. And again, I am sorry they were so dumb to knock it down then too, but the truth is the truth. Nobody (figure of speech for very little....since we need a disclaimer in everything here) cared. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 24 21:33:46 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Tue Mar 24 21:02:57 2015. People are complaining because your statement is simply not true. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 24 21:48:04 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:05:41 2015. Just making the point that the presence of an EL does not neccessarily condemn a area or neighborhood to blight & deterioration. Be it 60s or now. The broad brush simplistically equates Els with everything negative. Its a case by case, neighborhood by neighborhood deal |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 22:06:00 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:29:25 2015. I said there weren't many. Unfortunately there weren't.And I said you were wrong. Read the article linked earlier in the thread; there was considerable protest. This is the same generation that let Penn Station fall. There were some slight opposiotion to that too....but not many either. That was completely different. Penn Station was an architectural gem and a functional train station, and when the former was destroyed it had no effect on the latter. The Myrtle Avenue el was a vital transportation link for a neighborhood that many people lived in (and were expected to move into). When Penn Station was slated for demolition, there was a small protest from people who appreciated beauty and history. When the Myrtle el was slated for demolition, there was a large protest from people who wanted to be able to get places and not have their neighborhoods cut off from public transportation. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 22:07:49 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 24 21:33:46 2015. Considering that GP Chris is an admitted racist, I think when he says "not many people protested," he means "not many white people protested." Yes, there were large protests, but as far as he's concerned, they don't count. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Tue Mar 24 22:19:43 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 20:21:42 2015. Big housing projects were already up for two decades before the "el" closed. What's your point? Riders from the projects wasn't a large enough crowd, it was the closing of the Navy Yard that doomed the line. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 22:53:04 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by bklynsubwaybob on Tue Mar 24 22:19:43 2015. Riders from the projects wasn't a large enough crowdWeren't a politically powerful enough crowd, you mean. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 24 23:04:31 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 20:16:26 2015. LOL! Trying to outdo the "obama far right" post? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 23:09:10 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 24 23:04:31 2015. Confused again, boy? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Tue Mar 24 23:21:59 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 22:53:04 2015. No, that's not what I meant. Did you ride the 'el" during the rush hour? If you did you'd know. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:30:38 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 24 21:33:46 2015. It is true. Unfortunately there wasn't much attempt to stop it. Fast forward to when they wanted to close the franklin shuttle. Unfortunately, back then thought of it as "progress". We know better now, but was a different mindset. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:34:03 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by bklynsubwaybob on Tue Mar 24 22:19:43 2015. Certain people only see things in terms of Black and white....And attempt to equate everything to racism.Let's no forget it wasn't just the myrtle torn down....the 3rd avenue el in Manhattan was also torn down without a replacement. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:35:52 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 22:07:49 2015. I am not even going to equate your crap with a response. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:36:22 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 24 21:33:46 2015. But it is true unfortunately. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Mar 25 06:42:12 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:35:52 2015. You're not going to... what?English. You may want to brush up on it. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 06:52:47 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 22:07:49 2015. That's actually a valid point. I suspect that it is true that the El was closed simply because not enough white people protested. At the same time, various highways were stopped from being built because white people protested. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 07:37:03 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 06:52:47 2015. ....as well as others. The Bushwick Expressway I-78 never got built either. When the Cross Bronx went through the Bronx, it still had a lot of White People. let's also not forget the Long Island Express way through Maspeth and beyond. It got built through solidly white neighborhoods. The Whitestone Expressway. the list goes on.Hogwash. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 25 07:45:19 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 07:37:03 2015. Shut down the Astoria El! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 07:48:33 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 07:37:03 2015. The Long Island Expressway and Cross-Bronx Expressway were already built by the late 1960s.The Bushwick Expressway was not built because the Lower Manhattan Expressway wasn't. The city didn't want to funnel traffic into or through Manhattan anymore. Your simplistic attempts at claiming racism wasn't involved fail. |
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