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| (1344093) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Mar 16 06:09:11 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Sun Mar 15 16:58:03 2015. Yes, and as said, a number of those stations would have likely been consolidated (and possibly in a rebuild, even now as two single-track levels to accommodate wider cars where needed). Since such stations would have been made for 600' trains, if placed with exits at or near what were extsiting stations on the old line, the line could have been run with half as many stations as the old line.Especially if it were connected to the Montauge Line after Navy Street, such a line would have done well then and certainly now as a way to get to lower and midtown Manhattan, especially on the Broadway Line it likely would have connected to. |
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Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 16 07:01:46 2015, in response to Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Sat Mar 14 21:30:49 2015. Even after the Lex El was demolished at their behest.... Just like how Macy's demanded removal of the Jamaica El., then deserted the neighborhood anyway... |
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Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 16 07:11:03 2015, in response to Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 16 02:43:11 2015. I tell the truth. Why? Because that's how I roll. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 16 07:12:46 2015, in response to Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 16 02:57:54 2015. He does need to tell you. He doesn't know much and he needs to feel like a big man like you are. |
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Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 16 07:17:41 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 12 12:33:24 2015. I know work trains ran on the 3rd Ave El in The Bronx after its closure. But I've also heard that on the Eastern end of the Jamaica line, the tracks were cut immediately (like within minutes) after the last Fan Trip ran. The same thing happened in 1944 west of Myrtle Jay (except there was no fan trip..)So- can anyone state from memory if any work trains ran on the Myrtle in the period between closure and demolition? Thanks... |
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Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 16 10:59:47 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Mar 11 19:03:39 2015. I just noticed that. I wonder what "the other guy" looked like. :) |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 16 13:58:57 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Mar 15 06:03:48 2015. Maybe if you had walked Myrtle Ave from Broadway to Bridge/Jay, in 1969, you would realize why nobody-NOBODY-opposed the demolition of the lower Myrtle Ave L. Assuming, of course, you lived to tell about it! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 16 15:49:00 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 16 13:58:57 2015. Sadly that is true, and it was only worse in the 70's and 80's. And while yes, now the area has finally begun to recover, who could have foreseen what what would have happened there today, over 50 years ago. |
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| (1344162) | |
Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Mar 16 16:30:28 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 16 10:59:47 2015. I'm sure it became a low ride. :) |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Mar 16 16:54:49 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 16 13:58:57 2015. Don't you think the GG had something to do with it. Lafayette is only a few blocks from Myrtle and parallel to it. |
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Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 16 18:03:22 2015, in response to Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 16 07:01:46 2015. Wasn't there a Gertz there (as well as an A&S)? My family took numerous shopping trips to that area when I was 5 - 7 years old (o-o--o-r-r-r-r-r=ing)------"No, get in the car now...." "No, you can't take the cat...." "No, I can't promise we'll be home before your Farmer Grey cartoons come on..." |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Mon Mar 16 18:04:24 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 16 13:58:57 2015. haha! Correct! Even the people who lived there wanted to leave if they could and head to LI and NJ! At the time, everybody thought NYC was going straight to hell. |
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Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 16 18:08:58 2015, in response to Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western, posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 16 18:03:22 2015. I don’t recall an A & S but there was definitely a Gertz on Jamaica Av and a couple blocks past the end of the original el structure probably about 170 St there was a Mays. |
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Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 16 18:25:16 2015, in response to Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 16 18:08:58 2015. A & S? I'll have to look that up (a historic store locator site maybe?). I don't know for certain either, I'm just going on what my parents told me much later about there being several major dept. stores in the area.Mays I have no memories of. Like I said, all in the distant past. I have been told by a couple of people who posted on the Queens board that it was a very good place to go shopping for records - 45's. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by trains61 on Mon Mar 16 18:40:52 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 16 15:49:00 2015. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.You only know what people told you about in the area circa 1969 - 1977. You didn`t experience it for yourself. 1977 is listed because of the backout and we all know what unfortunately occured in the area then. But again I stress it wasn`t everybody. Funny, ewards! and I never had a problem. Elkeeper is a lost cause due to an incident that happened to him. So I won`t waste my time addressing him, as I have in the past. Especially his with quips about elevator surfing etc. You never know who`s reading and lurking. Thought your youth would bring a more open perspective to the table. " You don`t paint an entire neighborhood by the actions of a few." Otherwise Howard Beach would be an area that should be avoided at all cost, for certain groups. What I find to be utterly hilarious is that Mr. Carter a.k.a. JZ doesn`t want the likes of Elkeeper and other thinly veiled bigots in the neighborhood, that he currently resides either. I don`t visit this board on a regular basis anymore, since the active operating personnel have left. But I just wanted to state in all sincerity that there are alternate points of view of the area and era. Thank you for your time, The Lurker`s Guild |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 16 19:53:38 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Mar 16 06:09:11 2015. Myrtle Ave. el connected to the Montague St. tunnel route? Shades of the old Ashland Place connection - not sure how practical that would be or would have been....Regardless of how the status of relations between the BMT and the city during the 1920's affected this project (it was never carried out); there seemed to be ambivalence about building the Ashland place connection. How practical/ beneficial would it have turned out to be? If completed there would have been one more route to increase congestion at Dekalb Ave., and most likely, in later years, the upgraded Fulton st. el would have been operating at, near, or even beyond capacity like the Lex (in Manhattan). In addition, the ramp infrastructure from the Fulton St. el to the subway, would not only have displaced/ eliminated more streets/ buildings in an already crowded downtown area, but would also have been prohibitively expensive to build, versus the long term benefits (if there were any) that might have been projected. -- Anyway, enough about Ashland Place, I was just trying to give some kind of background comparison and got rambling (no, not with Gambling)... To begin with the latter issue - a ramp from the Myrtle to a tunnel connecting with the BMT in the vicinity of Lawrence St station - it probably would have been necessary to position it some distance north of Bridge/Jay, possibly between Navy and Vanderbilt stations - and likely placed closer to Vanderbilt for descending grade purposes (more on this below). Positioning the begining of the ramp at that point, along with eliminating & consolidating of stations - might reduce the number to as few as three (?) replacement stations from the previous six (post '55 Grand/Myrtle removal) or seven (pre-55 removal). How convenient for accessibility would only three stations (even with entrances at either end) be for riders on that stretch of Myrtle. (and of course in the vicinity of the proposed ramp, no station accessiblity at all - a long walk to Jay St. at the very least.) . Constructing the tunnel to connect with the R at Lawrence/ Metrotech? Wouldn't seem to be very much flexibility there either in the 1920s or now. Then, the Dekalb station/ tunnel infrastructure had finally been completed and opened, and the IND (1st phase) was on the BOT's drawing board. Politically the 20s were volatile as well with Hylan's voicciferous campaign against the "traction interests." To build the tunnel connecting the Myrtle el with the R at Lawrence; the excavation would needed to have been extremely deep to be underneath the tunnel infrastructure north of Dekalb - the five/ six track structure going north to the bridge, as well as the two "dive-under"* tracks that turn west to Lawrence St. & the Montague tunnel. Tunneling west from around Navy street, the structure would then have to veer sharply southwest for a very short length to hook up with the tunnel to Lawrence St. - looking at a map, just in the space of a few blocks (if that). Some 80 years ago, an entire block would have needed to be demolished in a crowded area, and if done in recent times, you'd have to deal with tunneling around, beside, or under (in whatever way possible, due to political issues or civil engineering obstacles) the University Towers complex (whether completed or earlier, in the planning stages). And, how would this two track tunnel then connect to the 4th Ave./ R? east of Lawrence St.? - connecting tunnels veering sharply into the existing tunnels from each side - in the most limited area possible given the two Lawrence bound tracks' rapid rise in grade after turning west from the Dekalb area? An impossible undertaking, after the fact, when all BMT (and later IND) construction in the area had been completed, or mega more problems and expense if it had been done along with the contemporary construction in the teens and 20s. [And if the Myrtle tunnel connected with the structure west of Lawrence St., the one stop in downtown Brooklyn that would have accessible for Myrtle riders, would have been eliminated] If this tunnel had been built and put into operation, this would have been one more congestion point for Dekalb - Via tunnel service could back up to some degree while waiting for Myrtle trains to depart from Lawrence St. station. I'm not sure there ever would have been the volume of riders to warrent such an expensive project - a project that would closely duplicate existing commuting options in that area. Eighty years ago the Myrtle did go directly to Manhattan. From Feb. '33 onwards people could change at Jay to the IND (free after [1940?]). Riders from Glendale (or traveling north from Bridge St.) had the option of taking the Myrtle-Chambers at B'way for the financial district; or to go uptown, changing to the IND at Delancy (after April 1936) or at the BMT Canal St. complex. Constructing a connecting tunnel from Myrtle to Lawrence/Montague tunnel for a one seat ride into Manhattan - unfortunatley would not seem to be practical... *dive-under tracks - that's the term used in England - I cannot remember what the common term is over here.... ------------------------------------------------------------------ ok, is anyone still awake at this point..... if not I guess it's deserved, rambling on about something that may be or is patently obvious.... heh! if any have nodded off, I hope you've toasted a glass of wine to Ruth..... |
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Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Mar 16 20:25:58 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by randyo on Sun Mar 15 16:52:22 2015. "... Myrtle was demolished almost immediately."Indeed. When the MTA wants something done ASAP, they waste no time. Kinda what happened to the Elmhurst Sta of the LIRR. After the station was closed, it seemed to vanish overnight. I remember going to College in Staten Island driving on the BQE to make a class & seeing large pieces of cut up El structure (assuming form the Myrtle) on flatbeds heading south, for some scrapper somewhere. Sad sight for a then entry level railfan |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 16 20:42:32 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Mon Mar 16 18:04:24 2015. "At the time, everybody thought NYC was going straight to hell. "Actually, not everybody. I have lived in NYC for 65 years. I had many opportunities (job offers, business transfers, etc.) to leave, and did not. I never lost faith in NYC, and I pity those who did. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Mar 16 21:37:17 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 16 19:53:38 2015. One term that has been used around these parts for "dive-under" is "underjump." |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 00:20:26 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Mar 16 21:37:17 2015. Yeah, that's right. Thanks. |
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Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 00:23:11 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Mar 16 20:25:58 2015. wasn't a "waste-no-time" act begun, as well, with the intent of closing and abandoning the Franklin shuttle which might have succeeded except for the effective community opposition which ultimately led to it's refurbishment and reconstruction? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 00:25:49 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 16 20:42:32 2015. city so nice, they had to name it twice.... remaining so, even in he not so greatest of times.................... |
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Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Mar 17 07:10:26 2015, in response to Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western, posted by italianstallion on Fri Mar 13 16:01:53 2015. Right. What I meant is that with imagination, (and waiver of FRA regs), it's still POSSIBLE, even now, to put subway service on the local tracks of the Harlem Line and build a terminal in the North Bronx or even Yonkers/Mt. Vernon for it.But the Myrtle El is completely lost, virtually no chance of restoring the service. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Mar 17 07:14:42 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 16 20:42:32 2015. I admire for that. I'm a few years younger, but I do remember the 1970s. Pre-1995 or so, it was very difficult to defend NYC (though I tried), and many people I went to school with also got the hell out, before they even gave themselves a chance to see what could happen. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 17 08:50:16 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by trains61 on Mon Mar 16 18:40:52 2015. Please, don't try and sugarcoat the FACT that the area went straight to hell in that era. |
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Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Mar 17 09:40:01 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 00:23:11 2015. As capital monies waxed and waned they went through a few cycles of "we're going to fix the Franklin Shuttle" and "not yet, we have to defer it." Finally they said "oh well, guess we'll just abandon it" (kind of what happened to Myrt and 3rd-Bronx).THAT's when the community rose in effective opposition. They didn't really rebuild it for transit purposes so much as to get points for responding to a lower-class community. The single-track, 2-car station thing seemed to me to be saying "you made us do it, but we don't like it." |
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Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 11:05:32 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by SLRT on Tue Mar 17 09:40:01 2015. And there is the criticism (that has appeared here), that it should have never been reduced to just a single track...re: "They didn't really rebuild it for transit purposes..." once again another example of the shortsightedness without any productive vision that unfortunately is seen time and time again. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Mar 17 12:49:17 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 16 20:42:32 2015. No, not literally every single person, obviously. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Mar 17 12:53:09 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Mar 16 16:54:49 2015. The GG service replaced a number of operations. A large part of the Lexington el, a large part of the Myrtle el and most of the Crosstown streetcar line. |
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Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western) |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Mar 17 13:01:11 2015, in response to Re: PROFF!! (Re: ''After a fire damaged the structural integrity of the elevated tracks, the western), posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 11:05:32 2015. A side note is that, unless they take physical passenger counts, we don't know how well ridden it is or isn't, since only Park Place is counted as Franklin/only boardings. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 13:09:48 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by trains61 on Mon Mar 16 18:40:52 2015. I am not isn't a lost cause because of my mugging on Atlantic Ave/ENY! For me, it was a wake-up call that parts of Brooklyn, that I used to visit on the trains, were going downhill and that people like you didn't give 2 shits that they were! My 21st birthday was Oct 4th, 1969, so I rode the Myrtle el end-to-end the day before, on a Friday. I had friends from St John's Univ, who lived in Ridgewood, Queens, so I was acquainted with the el, from Bridge-Jay north. I saw those neighborhoods, south of B'way a lot! Not a pretty sight, despite your claims to the contrary!Perhaps, I do fit into the old saying, "A conservative is a liberal who was mugged". But, add to that, I was executor or my great-aunt's will and had to sell her well kept rowhouse on Marginal Street East for $12,000- and was lucky to get it! That was 1979, Mr Lurker! Not easy when the guy next door, Jimmy Valdez was dealing drugs and women from his place. If you don't believe me, ask TUNNELRAT, who worked in that precinct. Yea, my fault, that most of the long time residents had left the neighborhood. Then people like you accuse me of bigotry when I attempt to tell the truth. So, go back to your Lurker's Guild and don't let the door hit you, on the way out! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 13:13:12 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Mar 17 12:53:09 2015. Which explains why there was no outcry from Pratt Institute students and staff, when the grand/myrtle station was ripped out, in 1953. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 17 13:45:34 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 13:09:48 2015. Excellent post. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by trains61 on Tue Mar 17 13:47:35 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 13:09:48 2015. You and that wide brush you paint with are a lost cause. Still can`t see the forest for trees? Have Tunnelrat or Edwards! or Mr. Rosen tell you about Junior Academy. Have folks from the area tell you about St. Peters Lutheran Church, which I attended. The Police officers, transit workers, Bd of Ed workers, teachers and other hard working people that sent their kids to college, that came from the era and area. i.e. Our dear departed Dante who attended Temple U.Folks who went to the military to defend your right to be bigoted. My point still stands, you can`t judge a entire neighborhood of folks from the actions of a few. You will never ever be able to tell me where to go or what to do! You can now crawl back underneath your rock, Archie Bunker wannabe... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by trains61 on Tue Mar 17 13:57:48 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 17 13:45:34 2015. Yet another lost cause.I still stand by my aforementioned post to Elkeeper. It`s amazing how Immigrants that were subject to the same bigotries and predjuices, now hold their noses up over others. A very wide brush indeed GP38... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 14:30:36 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by trains61 on Tue Mar 17 13:57:48 2015. I guess that you are talking about all of those immigrants who lived in crowded apartments- rather than in public housing, dig ditches or sold from pushcarts- rather than accept welfare, and got married and had children- rather than single mothers w/o child support from the guy who impregnated them? The same ones who worked hard, bought those houses in Brooklyn (and elsewhere)- only to see their neighborhoods destroyed! Terrible how they hold their noses up over others, many of whom are second and third generation public housing dwellers. If that's your argument, Mr Lurker- then I'm guilty as charged!!! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 14:58:44 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by trains61 on Tue Mar 17 13:47:35 2015. I'm not talking about those who bettered their lives. I'm talking about those who refuse to do so. Although some will better their lives, twenty-five years from now -a generation- East New York will basically be the same as it is now. You know it and I know it! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 17 15:02:22 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 16 19:53:38 2015. Actually, the logical place for a connection from Myrtle to the Montague St Line would have been between Bridge St and Court St (RR NORTH going towards Manhattan) since Myrtle Av lines up almost perfectly with Montague St. In all likelihood, if that had been an option, the Myrtle Av line would’ve had to cross under the IRT Clark St Line unless by some quirk of fate, it could have been built before that portion of the IRT. According to PSC reports from circa 1915, the BRT had no intention of connecting Myrtle to the subway but rather it was proposed to build a stub terminal at Flatbush extension and build a convenient transfer to the Myrtle Av (Gold St) station of the 4 Av subway. Part of the plans for the Ashland Pl connection included complete rebuilding of the entire Fulton St el to dual contract standards so that steel cars fit for subway use could be operated. There was a lot of political intertwining at the time which also involved the construction of a new station on the Bway Bkln el at Willy B plaza. The dispute involved who would pay for the new station and further work on upgrading Fulton was halted until the dispute was resolved which it never was thus only the portion of Fulton between Nostrand and Hinsdale St was able to carry steel cars which put the Ashland place connection on a back burner and eventually led to its replacement by the IND Fulton St Subway. Had the entire Fulton St el been rebuilt for steel cars, it’s highly likely that the entire Fulton St structure would have remained although probably connected to the IND somewhere in downtown Bkln rather than to the BMT subway. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 17:27:55 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 17 15:02:22 2015. A lot of elected officials, civic groups, and the Brooklyn Eagle were against the Ashland Place connection. Even the BRt worried about if it would have bottlenecked Dekalb Ave, even more! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 17:54:10 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by trains61 on Tue Mar 17 13:57:48 2015. http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/crime-safety-report/brooklyn/east-new-york |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Mar 17 17:57:22 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by trains61 on Tue Mar 17 13:47:35 2015. You went to St. Peter's on Beford Ave.? I knew a good number of those folks, including Pr. Gutu. I went to St. Luke's on Washington Ave. for 28 years until 2007. Both are sadly closed and sold as part of the "Strategic Plan" in the past couple of years.I had aunts and uncles that went to St. Peter's, abeit before WWII. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 17 18:54:19 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 17:27:55 2015. I have often wondered about that since Dekalb was congested with just the Southern Div services going through it so an Eastern Div line would have just added more to the mix. I do know that the BRT wanted the els off the Bkln Br. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 19:04:11 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 17:27:55 2015. Thanks for the background. I think I oroginally read about the Ashland Place connection details in a David Rogoff article for the Bulletin, where he may have discussed these issues.I read most of the Routes Not Built early last year when it came out. This included the Ashland Place chapter - unfortunately I do not remember many of the chapter's details. Each chapter contained a great many details of meetings, both private and public, as well as discussing the differences "feuds" between politicians, transit officials and community leaders. My thoughts while reading it was that I was going to have to re-read each chapter again (or more than once perhaps) to absorb all the details. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 19:41:41 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 17 18:54:19 2015. The BRT wanted an alternate bridge for their els. That was the primary reason That the Old Main Line spur, from Navy/Myrtle, over Hudson ave, to Fulton Ferry, was third railed, but not electrified. The single gate car with the Forney locomotive were used to preserve the franchise, in the event that the City changed its mind about a separate BRT bridge.By 1904, reality set in and the spur was closed on April 10th. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Tue Mar 17 20:02:55 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 17 13:45:34 2015. I agree. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 20:04:52 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 17 15:02:22 2015. re: "since Myrtle Av lines up almost perfectly with Montague St." I didn't know that - thanks.Not being (unfortunately) a NYC native completely familiar with this downtown area, I could only estimate where tunnels might have connected after viewing Google Maps - which of course is not the same Brooklyn as decades ago. So this dispute about payment occurred around 1915, and for how long approx. did it last before fizzling to back burner status (my assumptions here)? The BOT was formed in when - 1919-1920 or earlier? Plans for the 1st phase of the IND were published in a NYT article in 1922 If the most/all of the IND routes were planned and cofirmed, in-house, by the BOT, sometime before 1920, could the BOT (with personalities like Delany, Ridgway, & Snow at the helm for clout) have derailed the payment dispute for the BRT/BMT's Ashland/Fulton St. projects, by presenting instead, the IND Fulton St. subway as an alternative - a major route of the new and extensive municipal subway network? If the payment dispute had been resolved relatively quickly, and Ashland/Fulton el work had begun, could the new BOT have waded into the dispute anyway and terminated the work (pushing for the IND routes), or could ongoing Ashland/Fulton work ultimately have "scotched" BOT Fulton st. subway plans, and the BOT would simply have taken over management of it? ----------------------------------------------------------- PSC reports - what a wealth of information in these volumes. The law library in Boston where I worked during the 80s had a complete set of these 1st district reports. When I discovered the transit material, I'd stay late after work and get lost reading them (I wanted to photocopy everything I found - ha,hah!) |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 17 20:06:32 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 19:41:41 2015. wonderful details! you must have access to some great sources...! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 20:09:50 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 19:41:41 2015. Their first attempt to get a bridge was in 1892, for a train bridge AND a bridge similar to the current WillyB. The train bridge would have been just north of the Williamsburg bridge. Despite the NY State charter given to them, opposition was strong, especially from the Manhattan Elevated's Jay Gould and his powerful political friends. In 1896, the BRT surrendered their charter, only to have the Cities of Brooklyn and New York build the WillyB, beginning in the same year. Halfway through construction, in 1898, Brooklyn became part of NYC and the structure, as well as the later subway extension in Manhattan to Chambers St, came under the NYC Dept of Bridges. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 17 21:20:34 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 17 15:02:22 2015. Shame they never thought of connecting it to Montauge because that probably would have saved it from demolition later on.And Court Street would be the other option in a rebuild today doing it as otherwise noted. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 18 02:21:27 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 17 19:41:41 2015. The PSC reports that I am citing, make no mention of any other bridges! |
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