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| (1317915) | |
Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by INDviaCulver on Fri Oct 10 00:18:17 2014 Out of curiousity (for those who can recall), what was the reasoning behind the changes in rush hr Fulton Express service during the 60's and '70's (first A was the express, then E , then A again)? |
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| (1317945) | |
Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Andy on Fri Oct 10 09:02:03 2014, in response to Fulton Express Service, posted by INDviaCulver on Fri Oct 10 00:18:17 2014. Probably to keep the A on a consistent pattern (always express except owl hours). |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Oct 10 09:04:41 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Andy on Fri Oct 10 09:02:03 2014. There was no non-rush express service at all for much or all of those decades. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 10 10:35:29 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Andy on Fri Oct 10 09:02:03 2014. The problem with that theory is that until 1988 the Fulton St. line had express service rush hours only. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Oct 10 10:44:23 2014, in response to Fulton Express Service, posted by INDviaCulver on Fri Oct 10 00:18:17 2014. Interesting!!!! |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Oct 10 11:26:50 2014, in response to Fulton Express Service, posted by INDviaCulver on Fri Oct 10 00:18:17 2014. Most likely to speed up rush hour service, provide consistent service, to respond to customer complaints or problems, and/or to spread the passenger load among the trains.Until the mid-1970's fiscal crisis, the rush hour E-trains were express in Manhattan along Eighth Avenue sharing the same tracks with the A-trains from 42nd Street to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets in Brooklyn. ------------ At the NYC-Subway.Org website - take a look at the 1966 Subway Map. Then A-trains at the time were coming out of Lefferts Blvd and out of Euclid Avenue, where the A-trains were local. Then (1966) E-trains were the trains that traveled to/from Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park according to the Service Guide provided on the website. This scheme appears to provide consistent local service while providing express service to those further out, when needed during the rush hours. With the HH providing service to the Rockaways non-rush hours according to the service Guide in 1966. ------------ Now the 1967 Subway Map shows that A-trains, E-trains, and HH-trains serving the Rockaways, with the E-trains running rush hours, HH-trains running part-times, as well as A-trains serving those stations at some points during the day/nights/weekends. But what is important is that the maps clearly show the A-trains as making local stops in Brooklyn. Of interesting note is that the E-trains also served Lefferts Blvd during the rush hours! Note that the 1968 and 1969 maps are similar to the above notes, except that the E-trains do not serve Lefferts Blvd, and the A-trains are still local in Brooklyn. ------------- The 1972 Subway Map shows a big change. The A-train is express in Brooklyn, while the E-trains are the rush-hour locals from Euclid Avenue and Rockaway Park. The 1972 map shows the A-train as serving Far Rockaway full-time with either through or connecting service - most likely the Round Robin service pattern at late nights. The 1974 Subway Map has a similar pattern to the 1972 map noted above. ------------- The 1978 Subway Map now has the CC local train replacing the E-train during the rush hours as the local service in Brooklyn. This CC rush hours local train operated out of both Euclid Avenue and Rockaway Park. The E-train was "reduced" to operating full-time out of the World Trade Center. -------------- It should be noted that the E-train at least on the maps cited had a huge job. The E along with F-train had to service the huge passenger loads of Queens Blvd since only the 53rd Street tunnel existed as a connection, then the EE-local were the only Manhattan-bound Queens Blvd routes. Thus any problems in Brooklyn or Manhattan affected Queens Blvd service. And vice-versa! Now I have only looked at a few subway maps, and made some inferences. I'm pretty sure that folks who actually worked on the subways then might have some interesting details. Mike |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Oct 10 11:36:37 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Michael549 on Fri Oct 10 11:26:50 2014. One interesting note is the 1959 Subway Map - that while the Rockaways portion is in operation, A-train that services Lefferts Blvd, Far Rockaway, and Rockaway Park. During the rush hours then the A-train was express in Brooklyn. Then (1959) Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park service during the non-rush hours ended at Euclid Avenue.The E-train (1959) is shown to travel from Euclid Avenue to 179th Street Queens, and was the rush hour Brooklyn local. --------------- Going over the old subway maps helps to provide some answers. Mike |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 10 18:47:26 2014, in response to Fulton Express Service, posted by INDviaCulver on Fri Oct 10 00:18:17 2014. E was express for a time since the R10's were the only SMEE's the IND had, and accelerated better, so they got the Arnines off the local during the peak periods. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by INDviaCulver on Fri Oct 10 23:12:52 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Michael549 on Fri Oct 10 11:26:50 2014. Cannot find it, but an early version of the 1972 map STILL had the E trains going to Far Rockaway, Rockaway Park OR Lefferts during the rush hrs. However, on the back of the map, it stated that E trains only left Lefferts from about 7:10-740AM (prob those were put ins). There was NO HH service. And yes, the E trains ran via EXPRESS along Fulton St, and in Manhattan. On this particular map, there was STILL KK/QJ service along Jamaica Ave. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Oct 11 06:09:02 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 10 10:35:29 2014. True, and until 1999 the (A) was not an express on weekends.Only in '99 did the (C) begin running local except in overnights. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 11 09:50:20 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Michael549 on Fri Oct 10 11:26:50 2014. The E service to the Rockaways ran for a fairly short time each evening. I once made sure I took the first rush-hour E to Far Rockaway. When I got there, I found that I had just missed the last E express back to Manhattan. I think that was the first time I had ridden the Rockaway line. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 11 10:49:25 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 11 09:50:20 2014. Dan: Your right about the E service. "E" trains to Euclid Avenue and the Rockaways operated for about 90 minutes in each direction. Actual service to the Rockaways only lasted for about one hour with trains on the shoulders of the rush hour being turned back at Euclid.Effectine on September 8, 1959 the "A" would run local in Brooklyn while the "E" would run express. Passengers on the Liberty Avenue Line east of Rockaway Blvd. complained about the loss of "A" express service so three "E" trains would start at Lefferts Blvd in the AM rush and terminate there in the PM rush and would run express on Fulton Street. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Oct 11 10:53:29 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 11 09:50:20 2014. What did the train you exited at Far Rockaway become? Or did it just go out of service? |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 11 11:31:45 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Oct 11 10:53:29 2014. I think it went out of service. I had to wait for an "A". |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 11 15:35:03 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Michael549 on Fri Oct 10 11:26:50 2014. The idea behind swapping out the E and the CC in Brooklyn was to balance out the needs for both lines. Fulton St locals did not need the levels of E service that had to run from Jamaica. The CC was the better match. It was a pretty big service cut for rush hour riders on Fulton St, but back then those neighborhoods didn't really count much, for obvious reasons. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 11 15:58:09 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 11 15:35:03 2014. They would eventually have trouble jamming A + C via Cranberry tunnels. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 11 17:00:04 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 11 15:35:03 2014. Might that explain why there was shitty Eastern Division service for years?Or why subway service All over seem to get worse. The "obvious reason" is that the city was broke..with the MTA heading the table begging for money. Deficits were at an all time high... The Reason why E/CC service was swapped was Financial,rather than racial,like you are assuming. But,if you Are making such a claim..I know a great prosecutor who would be Willing to take a look into it. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 11 17:00:04 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 11 15:35:03 2014. Might that explain why there was shitty Eastern Division service for years?Or why subway service All over seem to get worse. The "obvious reason" is that the city was broke..with the MTA heading the table begging for money. Deficits were at an all time high... The Reason why E/CC service was swapped was Financial,rather than racial,like you are assuming. But,if you Are making such a claim..I know a great prosecutor who would be Willing to take a look into it. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 11 17:53:30 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 11 17:00:04 2014. Actually, I meant to say A + E |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 11 18:07:37 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 11 17:00:04 2014. Yup, the Fulton St line saw a general depopulation around it like the Broadway el did in the 1970s. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 11 18:20:43 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 11 18:07:37 2014. No question the neighborhoods suffered... but that only came from disinterest.. blacklisting..disinvestment.I know EXACTLY what happened.. Why it happened.. its long term effects And the Changes that are happening Today that made you all liars and deceivers. what happened was Man made..and intentional. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 12 00:20:17 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 10 18:47:26 2014. Once the old timers got going, they held their own against the SMEEs, even outrunning them. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by INDviaCulver on Sun Oct 12 01:48:00 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 11 17:53:30 2014. I could imagine the congestion from A and E trains probably 2 mins apart at the time. Any delays must have really screwed up Queens Blvd, Fulton and Rockaway service big time. Plus with a decline in ridership on the Fulton and Rockaway segments, not as many E trains were needed. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 12 09:44:37 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 12 00:20:17 2014. A friend who lived on the Brighton line in the 1960's said a BMT Standard Express never once over took a R27 QT Local. Lucky if the Standard stayed even.If the R30's theoretically replaced the Southern Divsion Standards, and the R32's the Triplexes, why were there any Southern Division Standards at all around running until 1965 ? |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Oct 12 12:55:18 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by INDviaCulver on Sun Oct 12 01:48:00 2014. "I could imagine the congestion from A and E trains probably 2 mins apart at the time. Any delays must have really screwed up Queens Blvd, Fulton and Rockaway service big time. Plus with a decline in ridership on the Fulton and Rockaway segments, not as many E trains were needed."Agreed, but could you imagine the goings on at 50th Street-Eighth Avenue in both directions - where A-trains wait as D and E trains are both entering and leaving tracks ahead of it? Or at Jay Street-Borough Hall with both E and F trains across the platforms from each other - noting that the only other places where that could happen is at the outer stretches of Queens! Just thinking about the operations at Myrtle Avenue when the QJ, KK and M trains were running with both rush hour QJ and M trains running express while KK local trains plied the tracks. The time-lapse filming of the operations would have been interesting. Mike |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 12 13:07:48 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Michael549 on Sun Oct 12 12:55:18 2014. When it was 10, 14, & 15, the TT's were not only deadheading to ENY (which meant more reverse peak trains than peak trains), but some TT's were relaying back at Chambers holding up both the 10 and the 15. I looked out may an R16 RFW (heading to my Mom's office) to see that all play out. The TT and 10 were literally crossing paths. The Eastrern Divsion then also had Brightliners that nobody could ride and dirty brown Standards and R16's that we did.I could see why they wanted the QJ to replace that little operational drama above. I never saw a Brighton / Nassau Loop train, so I don't know how they worked with all of this. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 12 15:47:02 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 12 09:44:37 2014. They were running even later than that on the Culver and Fkln shuttles well into 1966. I recall in the winter of 1966/67, one of the Bankers' Specials went bad on the stand at 9 Av, so the Yd/Mast at 36 St Yd quickly assembled a train of 6 single 67 ft A cars and put them into service. I saw that train passing through Broad St during my platform trick and thought what a time not to have a camera. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 12 16:02:42 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 12 15:47:02 2014. I rode Standards on the Franklin shuttle in '65 and '66, took at least one picture of them.Also rode them on the Culver shuttle possibly in '67 or even during the late spring of '68. Maybe it was during '68, that's when also I rode/ photographed Standards on the Myrtle/Chambers rush - had just finished high school and wanted to ride & photograph this stuff, before I spent the summer in Paris* *Paris summer 1968 - There were pre-war Sprague-Thompson cars running almost everywhere, except on the rubber tired lines 1 & 4, and up on line 13 (earlier steel wheeled post-war equipment). It was kind of like NYC in 1956-57 or so, almost all the pre-war fleet was operating on the main lines & only postwar equipment was R10s, R16s, + IRT R12s,14s,&15s, on the Flushing line ** ** dont' remember when these cars where moved onto the IRT mainlines. was it as early as 1957 or later? |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 12 18:42:12 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 12 15:47:02 2014. I wonder where the conductor was on that train. Theoretically he could have been in any car!:) |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 12 18:43:56 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 12 09:44:37 2014. Just for clarification, when I say, "old timers," I am referring to the R-1/9s. With healthy motors, they could really move. Look at the museum cars. They howl ass up COW. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 12 18:44:28 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 12 09:44:37 2014. Just for clarification, when I say, "old timers," I am referring to the R-1/9s. With healthy motors, they could really move. Look at the museum cars. They howl ass up COW.Make that CPW. Sorry, Kev.:) |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Oct 12 18:50:35 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Oct 10 10:44:23 2014. RADL |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Oct 12 18:58:47 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 12 18:44:28 2014. No, they mooed loudly when running, it's OK. :) |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Oct 12 19:47:00 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 12 16:02:42 2014. IRT R12s,14s,&15s, on the Flushing line **They were on the Flushing Line until 1964. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 12 22:26:11 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Oct 12 19:47:00 2014. Thanks!Was pretty sure they weren't transferred over during the late 50s, I just didn't remember when. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 12 23:00:23 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 12 18:42:12 2014. At the time that train operated, the rule was that the C/R had to operate from the second south car of a 6 car train since that would normally be the master car of a south unit. That rule went into effect after the steels were removed from the Southern Div mainlines since it would obviously present a problem for trains going around the Nassau Loop. When the steels were more plentiful, the rule was that the C/R would operate from the master car of the rear section which would always be the 5th car of a 6 car train regardless of direction. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Oct 13 20:35:30 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Oct 12 18:58:47 2014. Those gear sounds were music to my ears. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Oct 13 21:37:27 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Oct 13 20:35:30 2014. And speedometer to mine. :) |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by milantram on Tue Oct 14 06:14:24 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Oct 12 19:47:00 2014. I was living at 105th and West End in 1963. I remember one Saturday morning early in 1963 when I went to catch a Broadway/7th Avenue local at 103rd Street to go downtown. While waiting, an outbound train arrived. The first six cars were the usual R29s (8-car trains at that time). But the 7th and last cars were R15 6234 and R12 5717. That was the first recorded transfer of Flushing line stock to the mainline. Boy, was I surprised! I think I even said "Holy shit!" LOL.Of course, there was a rapid transfer of Flushing Line stock soon after, when the R36WFs started to arrive. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 14 12:37:05 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by milantram on Tue Oct 14 06:14:24 2014. What is interesting about that transfer is that those cars had grab bars instead of individual hand holds and the TA didn't want to place those cars in service until they were retrofitted with those cheesy individual handholds that were attached to the grab bars. Now all the cars have grab bars and no single hand holds so that the installation of those handholds was completely unnecessary. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Oct 14 16:27:39 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 12 16:02:42 2014. In 1968, line 11 was already also rubber tired, line 3 had a few MF67 mixed with Spragues and line 13 had a few Spragues mixed with MA51, line 12 almost all Nord-Sud stock. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 14 17:43:46 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 12 13:07:48 2014. Actually during rush hours, TTs did not turn at Chambers St but went O/S and 3 of them laid up the dO Yd and 2 returned via the bridge to CIY along with the Brighton Bankers' Specials which arrived in the Nassau Loop via the tunnel. The 5 4 Av Bankers' Specials arrived Chambers via Bridge and returned through the tunnel as TT West End lcls turning at 9 Av fro N/B TT service or to bay Pky to lay up. In the PM, 3 TTs turned at 9 Av ran to the Nassau Loop where they returned as 4 Av Bankers Specials although unlike the AM when they ran exp, the pM specials ran lcl to 95 St. To replace those 3 TT lclc, the 3 AM layups ran light from DO Yd to Chambers St where they entered TT service to Stl. The PM Brighton specials ran light via the bridge and entered S/B tunnel service at Chambers St. While AM Brighton specials entered service at BBC, the PM specials ran all the way to Stl. In the AM there 5 each 4 Av and Brighton specials but only 3 each on the PM. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 14 17:45:37 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Oct 11 10:53:29 2014. It's quite possible that it ran back to Euclid as an HH shuttle because in the AM there were some Rockaway Es that upon arr Rock Pk, returned to Euclid and laid up. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Oct 15 10:34:43 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 14 17:43:46 2014. Pardon my ignorance, but what is DO Yard? Can't figure it out. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 15 13:24:09 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Oct 15 10:34:43 2014. "DO" was the old popular name for ENY Yd. It got than nickname because it was where the (D)istrict (O)ffice of the BRT/BMT master mechanic was located. Unfortunately, even not too many employees are left who recall that. Every now and again, you might see me refer to a yard in Canarsie as "AY." That was the name of the original storage yd at Rocky Pky which was at approximately a right angle to the line itself and is no longer there. It got that name because it was yard "A" for the Canarsie Line. The present yd was originally known as the "dump." It got that name because that area was land fill and was where the BMT's rubbish pick up trains deposited their trash. The pick up trains laid up on the 1 AY and deposited their trash in the land fill, as the area filled in, tk 1 AY was gradually moved over until that whole area was filled in, To meet service needs, an additional yd was constructed there which became known as the "dump" due to its origins and the former tk 1 AY became tk 1 dump and the lowest tk number in AY was now tk 2 which the pick up trains now used but the trash was hauled away instead of being "dumped." Until mid to late 1968, both yds were in use when the MTA added tks to the dump and removed AY making the current yd simply "Rockaway Pky Yd." Over the years, even more tks were added as well as a car wash. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Oct 16 20:39:16 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Joe V on Sun Oct 12 13:07:48 2014. I remember seeing an R-32 TT in ENY Yard from the Broadway Junction platform on the Larry in July of 1967. Then I saw the BMT standards for the first time. Thought I was going to puke. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Oct 16 20:41:32 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 12 23:00:23 2014. I think it's safe to assume that a six-car train of all-A cars was a very rare exception. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Oct 16 20:44:13 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 12 23:00:23 2014. I think it's safe to assume that a six-car train of all-A cars was a very rare exception. I still can't explain why, bit in the two years I rode on the standards on the Larry, I never, ever rode in the same car as the conductor. Brooklyn-bound, we'd be in the third or fourth car while Manhattan-bound, we were always in the first car. I still remember seeing a 2x6 jammed against the handle of a storm door once. Guess that door wouldn't stay shut. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Oct 16 20:46:46 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 14 12:37:05 2014. Plus all that prejudice against the R-15, calling them Queens cars and not using their door controls on the mainlines. |
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Re: Fulton Express Service |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:18:49 2014, in response to Re: Fulton Express Service, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Oct 16 20:41:32 2014. It was. I assumed that the reason all As were used was due to A cars having to be available for 2 car Culver shuttle trains. |
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