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| Re: { Helicopter view } PHOTOS: MNR Derailment (1261245) | |
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| (1261427) | |
Re: { Helicopter view } PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 15:33:04 2013, in response to { Helicopter view } PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Gold_12th on Sun Dec 1 14:58:06 2013. Based on this, the center track, which the train was on, was not torn up at all. This tells me it was a clean jump off the rails. Then the first few cars slid across the western/southern track, tearing that one up pretty badly, and rolled toward the river.This points to a speed issue, but the cause of any excess speed remains unknown. Once the train is moved, 2 tracks can be returned to service pretty quickly. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 15:36:14 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 13:52:41 2013. nope |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 15:41:03 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 15:25:04 2013. yes its part of physical characteristics every engineer must learn.and no MNCR has no wheel detectors |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1261432) | |
Re: { Helicopter view } PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Sun Dec 1 15:42:55 2013, in response to Re: { Helicopter view } PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 15:33:04 2013. Probably 1 track could be in service. I doubt two track since they need a track for to fix the issue. |
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| (1261434) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Dec 1 15:56:45 2013, in response to PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Dec 1 08:56:20 2013. I would think that whatever caused this that the railroad will change the entire cab signaling zones on both sides of the curve to make it around a 15 to 20 mph and also insure that any penalty applications kick in way before the curve. I am by no means an expert on the system but I'm puzzled why this train didn't get a PA if indeed it was going past the speed limit. |
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| (1261440) | |
Re: { Helicopter view } PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 16:12:28 2013, in response to Re: { Helicopter view } PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 15:33:04 2013. At 5:12 there's something that looks like a tiny gap in the rail. At 10:57 it looks like maybe a worker is examining it. That could be an optical illusion, or a result of the derailment. |
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| (1261445) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 16:18:00 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Dec 1 15:56:45 2013. Why make it 15 or 20 if thousands of trains have done the curve fine at 30? |
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| (1261446) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 16:22:23 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 16:18:00 2013. Right. It's not that tight a curve. |
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| (1261448) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sun Dec 1 16:28:17 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by R36 #9346 on Sun Dec 1 13:58:32 2013. I don't think its possible to turn Amtrak trains around in POU and Croton Harmon, the Amtrak trains on the Empire line need a wye or a loop track to turn around. |
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| (1261450) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by murray1575 on Sun Dec 1 16:39:24 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 13:48:52 2013. That is ancient history. It happened in January 1953 (before I was born) and today's equipment is much more reliable than anything on the rails then. However anything mechanical can fail and the NTSB will look at all the damaged equipment and the event recorder from the train to determine the probable cause. |
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| (1261452) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 16:45:39 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Dec 1 15:56:45 2013. they did not do that at Back Bay in boston after crash ??if you have brake failure, it really does not matter what cab signal shows. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Dec 1 16:50:16 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 16:45:39 2013. If that cab signal was showing a Clear then I doubt this was "brake failure". I for one hope you are right, but brake failures aren't too common. |
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| (1261456) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Dec 1 16:51:16 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 13:11:20 2013. Interesting that is the case even on track 4 which has a diverging move at the next CP. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 16:54:27 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Charles G on Sun Dec 1 12:37:04 2013. Which leads me to believe it was going faster than 30 MPH. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Dec 1 16:55:59 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 15:36:14 2013. Just as brake failure in your car can be things other than a loss of brake fluid, there are more causes for railway brake failure than loss of air. Besides loss of brake pipe air connects the air in the car reservoirs to the cylinders bringing you to a stop. An engineer would have to be blacked out to not sense one of the several signs that he was running out of air (inability to release normal braking, the horn and bell don't work, in some designs the electrical contactors stop working interrupting traction power, air gauge about 2 feet from his face, etc).A conductor friend detected an impending air loss from 2 cars back when he heard the anti slide braking feature cycling. Engineer was already securing the train by the time friend got to the cab to say something is going wrong. Bill |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 17:01:25 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Dec 1 12:48:53 2013. Even if it was leaves, the train would have had to have been speeding. The MAS behind here is 70 MPH, the area ahead it's 75.... |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 17:04:39 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by nostalgia on Sun Dec 1 12:49:47 2013. But it uses the switch. However, the switch between the Metro North and Amtrak line is considerably further up the ROW. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:07:09 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Dec 1 16:50:16 2013. cab signal never shows a restriction where its just track speed is lower.the Accident at Back Bay is prime example. If for example the Beacon line had Cab signal/atc/acses and speed is 25 mph what do you think aspect is ?? correct clear cab. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:08:25 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Dec 1 16:51:16 2013. no if on track 4 you get a medium indication cause a 30 mph switch is involved. |
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| (1261469) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:09:09 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 16:54:27 2013. really ?? question is why human or mechanical failure ?? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:10:28 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Charles G on Sun Dec 1 12:37:04 2013. consider brakes are useless once wheel leaves the rail. steel wheels and dirt don't interact well. |
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| (1261474) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 17:12:51 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:09:09 2013. That's the question the NTSB will have to answer. Hopefully the event recorder will accurately measure what the engineer did. |
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| (1261475) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:12:54 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 17:01:25 2013. ?? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 1 17:46:49 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Charles G on Sun Dec 1 12:37:04 2013. Even at 30 mph, brush isn't going to slow down a train.your pal, Fred |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 17:52:10 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 1 17:46:49 2013. But dirt does. A train rolling or sliding on dirt is going to decelerate more rapidly than a train on tracks with emergency braking. |
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| (1261488) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 17:58:06 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:10:28 2013. News reports indicate that witnesses said the cars were rolling over once they went off the rails. |
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| (1261489) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Dec 1 17:59:00 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:07:09 2013. Even if that is not attributable to this particular crash I would hope the pending PTC installation improves upon that situation. |
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| (1261490) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 1 18:04:51 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 17:52:10 2013. On frozen hard dirt?your pal, Fred |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:08:17 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 17:52:10 2013. nope it is not, specially if ground is frozen |
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| (1261494) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 18:09:54 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:07:09 2013. Does the Automatic Speed Control gradually step down over a couple of blocks from 70 to 30 MPH ?I am thinking of the LIRR Atlantic Branch from Rosedale to Valley Steam. A Far Rockaway train, not a Long Beach or Babylon, must go from 70 to 30 to 15 MPH by about a 1,000 feet before the 15 MPH turn. |
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| (1261495) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:10:17 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by WillD on Sun Dec 1 17:59:00 2013. nope signaling is still planned same. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:13:57 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 18:09:54 2013. no the 30 mph is not a speed restriction, its a set track speed.cab/atc will only show speed restrictions due to avoidable events. like switching to other track. same thing happened at Back bay 25 years ago. for example if Beacon line had signals and speed is 25 mph the Cab signal would show normal cab (MAS) |
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| (1261498) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 18:16:59 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:13:57 2013. There's a problem. 30MPH should be a permanent speed restriction, and 2 blocks back, start going down from 70. Don't know if that can be done here. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 1 18:19:23 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 1 18:04:51 2013. Sand drags everywhere! It's the only answer! |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:25:03 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 18:16:59 2013. no it is not, and again even if it were a Cab/ATC restriction, loss of brakes would not have slowed down the train. |
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| (1261503) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Dec 1 18:30:09 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:13:57 2013. Very interesting discussion. when I ride Amtrak 79 & 80,you can feel it slow down through every interlocking ,of course.They will find the cause, I'm sure on this tragedy. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:32:42 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Dec 1 18:30:09 2013. slow down trough each interlocking ??? why |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Dec 1 18:40:51 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:32:42 2013. The section between WAS and SELMA-Smithfield, is CSX tracks , so maybe it's speed restrictive??? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:42:07 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Dec 1 18:40:51 2013. only if crossing over, straight track normally calls for MAS. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Dec 1 18:44:11 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 17:58:06 2013. One of the factors in the ensuing investigation will be the equilibrium and overturning speeds of the cars and Gennie on a curve of that particular radius. But like many others here, I'm wondering why, if speed is found to be the cause, the many warning and safety devices built into the train and system all apparently failed to function.The nature of the injuries and the disposition of the equipment (overturned), suggest a high-speed event here, as does the fact that several passengers were ejected from the cars. Ejection of unrestrained passengers from a vehicle is common in high-speed rollovers, whether automobiles or railroad cars. ("High-speed" is a relative term; in emergency medicine, it's anything over 30 MPH.) St. Baranbas Hospital (a Level I Trauma Center) reports quite a few collarbone injuries, and that's consistent with high-G impacts after being thrown around in a confined space. Just an observation... |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 18:46:58 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:08:17 2013. The ground isn't frozen. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Dec 1 19:02:50 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:42:07 2013. On straight track we do 79 mph with the diesel.. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Dec 1 19:09:40 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 17:08:25 2013. Ah ok, and I guess the train wasn't on track #4 then. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 19:10:10 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:13:57 2013. So there is no cab signal of any sort for a track speed restriction? If a train was over speeding, there would be no alarm? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Dec 1 19:12:33 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 18:13:57 2013. The difference is that after Back Bay Amtrak installed non-conditional cab signal drops at all of its high risk speed restrictions like Back Bay, Elizabeth, Frankford Jct and a few others. The LIRR has some too and more recently SEPTA has added some as well. I figured that would have become standard practice. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Dec 1 19:18:06 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 19:10:10 2013. It is not a restriction, it is the normal maximum speed for that section. Changes from one MAS to another are advised by the rule book and are indelibly memorized by every engineer as part of qualifying.Bill |
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| (1261530) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Dec 1 19:31:03 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Dec 1 15:56:45 2013. That's the NYCT approach, I would hope railroads aren't that overly cautious. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Neil Feldman on Sun Dec 1 19:31:35 2013, in response to PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Dec 1 08:56:20 2013. Very scary, and I feel especially for the crew who worked that train! |
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| (1261532) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Dec 1 19:33:20 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Dec 1 18:44:11 2013. Warning devices -watch out for the begging the conclusion fallacy. You don't sound like you have a knowledge of the devices but you assert that they should have reacted here. Speak positive, tell us what devices ARE there and what they cover. Then you can make credible pointers to where they failed.Ejection -I don't recollect ejection being common in high speed railroad accidents. Ejection sounds like a propelling force, if this is the windows breaking on the ground and the person falling, then then the only speed is gravity for two to four feet. Still deadly if the car is sliding forward at even a slow speed but not a proof of high train speed. Bill |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Dec 1 19:36:03 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Dec 1 18:44:11 2013. The nature of the injuries and the disposition of the equipment (overturned), suggest a high-speed event here, as does the fact that several passengers were ejected from the cars.Oddly, though, the cars don't seem to have sustained much damage. My blog |
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