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| (1166366) | |
Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 13 02:23:49 2012 ... to Rio Tinto in NW Australia anyway. From Railway Gazette.Funny how Rio Tinto, BHP, and the QNS&L can do OPTO and ZPTO for their freights which are FAR heavier than most trains on US mainline railroads by relying on advanced signalling systems, yet US railroads can't even install the rudimentary signalling systems the feds have mandated to provide modicum of train control. |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jul 13 07:44:23 2012, in response to Automated Trains Coming, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 13 02:23:49 2012. *Yawn* Been there, done that.. Captive mining railroads have special operating circumstances that regular railroads do not enjoy. Train weight is not what makes automating freight trains difficult, it is train inconsistency. A 75 car fully loaded ore train will behave the same way day in, day out just like a 75 car empty ore train. The Hamersley & Robe River railway is completely isolated, it carries only these massive ore trainsets back and forth between the mines and the docks. You won't have trains with 15 loaded oil cars, 23 empty hi-cube box cars, 4 autoracks, 6 intermodal flats, 45 municipal waste cars, etc.The signaling technology isn't what is at issue here. Ansaldo STS = US&S and most of this "technology" was probably developed in Pittsburgh. If a train has consistent handling characteristics when it is absolutely not a difficult task to automate. In addition to an even car loading profile you need consistent braking, which is why they are fitting Electrically Controlled Pneumatic braking. Unfortunately ECP is not practical for a general purpose freight network as seen in both the United States and the rest of Australia. ECP is very expensive and requires more advanced maintenance which will be hard to carry out anywhere you have cars being interchanged between railroads and sitting around rusting on industrial sidings. Second these ore trains are in a very high margin service. They roll 24/7 transporting goods that are seeing unprecedented demand on global markets. A hi-cube box car hauling newsprint to a local publishing facility is not in a high margin service that can justify the expense of ECP braking. Also don't forget that the Hamersley & Robe River railway, in addition to the QNS&L run through Max Mad country with few grade crossings and few local residents. Because ore trainsets are never uncoupled while in transit you don't need a second crew-member. Anyway, why don't you go learn how trains work before you go spreading your "let's make everything rapid transit" gospel. Let's see what happens when one of your light weight DMU's mixes it up with a (potentially) driverless freight train. Oooo, not so great. |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jul 13 10:14:22 2012, in response to Automated Trains Coming, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 13 02:23:49 2012. Not even remotely worried about this coming here to main line railroading before I retire!!! |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jul 13 10:27:07 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jul 13 10:14:22 2012. You should be worried if you do passenger operations. In 10-20 years you should expect fully automated commuter rail operation including door controls. I'm sure there will still be some sort of attendant on board, but their job will be more customer service than driving the train. Best part is you don't even need a new signaling system. All the technology that is currently realizing autonomous road vehicles can be used to trivially implement autonomous rail vehicles, and you won't even need specially built equipment. Such trains would be able to stop for obstructions, properly line up at platforms, work the doors and answer most rider questions.Freight will continue to need people up to the point railroad start employing androids to throw hand switches and reconnect brake lines. |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jul 13 10:32:28 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jul 13 10:27:07 2012. Freight will be the first to go fully automatic.You are thinking of a piddling little peddler freight. That gets a one-man crew with a remote control box for switching. Freight out here is made up in one yard or terminal and broken up in another yard or terminal. In between it needs no crew. Between signalling and GPS and equipment available now it is just a matter of doing it. ROAR |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Jul 13 10:36:11 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jul 13 10:32:28 2012. Small thinking no surprise coming from him... |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 13 12:55:59 2012, in response to Automated Trains Coming, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 13 02:23:49 2012. It's interesting that there is so much money going on in these operations, with China buying it's own lines and ports as well, that after all this cashflow and investments, there isn't much need for anyone to actually do the work! |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jul 13 13:17:02 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 13 12:55:59 2012. Only if you want to earn money.ROAR |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Fri Jul 13 13:34:43 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jul 13 13:17:02 2012. OBS is happy living off his parents |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Outside the Box on Fri Jul 13 14:05:10 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jul 13 07:44:23 2012. As per the articles you provided, human error and foggy conditions were the causes of the DMU freight train head on collision. The freight operator ran past both the distant and main signal, the switch set for the passenger train, and didn't respond to a radio call from a train director until after the collision. If Deutsche Bahn had installed ATP on that line, as they had been putting off, the accident wouldn't had happened. |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jul 13 16:55:09 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by Outside the Box on Fri Jul 13 14:05:10 2012. My point is that since you can't prevent all train-train collisions due to the fact that heavy North American style freight trains can derail without warning (or pick points on a crossover, etc) at any time so railcars need to be built assuming that collisions will happen. That is the result when one of Will's favourite DMU's with "crash energy management" gets into an accident. |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jul 13 17:22:52 2012, in response to Automated Trains Coming, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 13 02:23:49 2012. not much automation needed ever see where Rio Tinto operates ?Double track and no traffic, no tree's, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP4-iFIafUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmlAQS45Z0A |
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Re: Automated Trains Coming |
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Posted by Outside the Box on Sat Jul 14 12:03:04 2012, in response to Re: Automated Trains Coming, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jul 13 16:55:09 2012. Conventional US passenger rail cars don't do very well either. FRA trialed Crash Energy Management additions to conventional designs and they worked far better than conventional FRA compliant passenger rail cars.The head on collision had a combined speed of over 80+mph. Beyond 40mph, its better to focus on preventing accidents. You can have rail cars designed for crashes at 60+mph, but they are very heavy or require expensive materials (CNT aluminum composites). Another strategy us to run a lightweight crash car ahead and behind the passenger cars. It may carry postal packages. The train operator can have a remote operator station with live video feed from many sections of the train. The same may apply to the front and rear of freight trains in certain cases (HSR running with freight). If there is a collision, that car absorbs the crash energy. Part of preventing accidents is better monitoring. Freight locomotives could be equipped with track sensors to detect rail defects as they pass through. As consumer and industrial MEMS and electronics come down in cost, wayside hotbox and dragging equipment detectors and signal equipment can double as acoustic and seismic detectors to look for bad wheels. |
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