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| Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus (1110119) | |
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| (1111356) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Oct 22 21:46:50 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by MELLOW ONE on Sat Oct 22 11:06:15 2011. You can copy your screen by pressing "ctrl" and ""print screen" at the same time. That copies the image of whatever is on your scree to the clipboard. You can then paste it into your favorite photo editing software, crop and save, and there you have the image.... |
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| (1111382) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 22 22:19:11 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Oct 22 21:46:50 2011. One of the handy things in KNOS as we designed it is that we can just hit up the "Accessories/take screenshot" feature and click once where we want the crop to start in one corner and then drag to where we want it to end and let go, voila ... instant image saved. No editing required. :) |
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| (1111520) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 23 17:52:14 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Oct 21 21:37:44 2011. Actually TBM is not a bad way to go. The State and Dearborn St subways in Chicago were built as deep level tunnels all by hand without the aid of TBMs and the State St Subway opened up within 5 years of the start of construction. The problem is not with the methods of construction so much as it is with what passes for MTA planning not having the intestinal fortitude to plan properly and then execute those plans. I have said it before and it bears repeating, that what we need now is a Robert Moses like individual who will do for mass transit what Moses did for highways. Damn the NIMBYs and full speed ahead!!! |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Oct 23 22:33:27 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Joe on Fri Oct 21 14:26:44 2011. Fascinating! I wonder if the el/trolley transfers continued with the same bus routes when the trolleys stopped running over the BB to Park Row on 5/06/50? One more question- what time did the last train from Park Row go through Bridge/Jay? |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MELLOW ONE on Sun Oct 23 23:20:24 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Oct 23 22:33:27 2011. I believe it was some time in 1944.There was no fanfare for the event. There were too many other important events occcuring at that time. |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 07:52:15 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Oct 23 22:33:27 2011. The last BMT train went to Park Row in 1944. I don't know the exact date- but as as has been pointed out, then-current events precluded and significant commemorative events. A few pics were taken, though (no, I don't have them- sorry). Also, a few pics exist of the demolition of the BMT Park Row terminal, which continued into early 1945..when the world picture was substantially similar to 1944. |
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| (1111618) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 07:57:36 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Joe on Fri Oct 21 14:26:44 2011. I'd also previously heard the story about how a work crew physically closed off the El west of Myrtle Jay right after the last train passed.For that matter, I've also read that, in similar fashion, a work crew severed the Jamaica El tracks east of Sutphin Blvd (presmumably west of the station itself) immedidatley (like, within minutes) after the last Fan Trip train was out of the demolition zone...can anyone confirm? |
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| (1111619) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 07:59:30 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by 3-9 on Fri Oct 21 05:24:51 2011. Yeah, they do seem to bei doing that on some bus lines...cut service to the point where the route is impractical, then claim "low ridership". |
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| (1111621) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 08:01:38 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 21 09:58:52 2011. I didn't know about the plans to eliminate the Culver Line and the #1 north of Dyckman St. Wow...glad those didn't happen. |
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| (1111623) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 08:05:43 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 23 17:52:14 2011. Is not much of the London Underground deep-bored...without TBM technology (didn't exist then?) I continue to be amazed at what other cities, such as DC manage to GET DONE...while NYC's been working on the SAS for 82 years and counting. |
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| (1111629) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Joe on Mon Oct 24 08:57:02 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Oct 23 22:33:27 2011. While last runs on some lines were around midnight, the final trip from Park Row to Bridge-Jay was midday. I am quite certain that the transfer I described was received some minutes later.--- Someone asked whether the transfers extended into the bus era. No, because when the PCC's were yanked from the Brooklyn Bridge in 1950, they were not replaced by buses. Several things happened between 1944 and 1950. The trolleys were moved from the vehicular roadway to the el tracks. The el stations at Park Row and Sands Street were demolished. On July 1, 1948, the rapid transit fare went to a dime and (if memory serves me correctly) the fare on Board of Transportation surface routes went to 8 cents. Turnstiles were removed from the PCC's and the 6000's. At some point the Bridge-Jay transfers were changed from el-to-trolley, to el-to-Independent and their Brooklyn-bound availability was restricted to one token booth at Broadway-Nassau. That change may have happened in May, 1950. ---- I vaguely recall the el station being renamed from Bridge Street to Bridge-Jay Streets, with a new mezzanine built at the Jay Street end ready for use on the last day of Park Row el service. The reason may have been the hike from Bridge St. to Sands Street. |
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| (1111677) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 24 12:46:02 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 07:57:36 2011. Considering how popular the waterfront is today, I wonder how different things would be if, not only the Myrtle Ave still existed, but it still went all the way to Sands Street? Would Sands Street be significant to the neighborhood today, or just redundant compared to other transit options? |
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| (1111703) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MELLOW ONE on Mon Oct 24 14:24:10 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 24 12:46:02 2011. The Sands St Elevated RR Terminal was eventually superceded by the IRT and BRT/BMT Subway Station complex under Flatbush Ave. The BMT had complete rapid transit control of the Brooklyn, Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. The Brooklyn Bridge was limited to the Elevated RR traffic. The Manhattan Bridge was built for subway traffic. The Williamsburg bridge was also built for subway traffic, although the Broadway El operated into a Manhattan Subway loop initially. The Broadway Williamsburg Bridge traffic offered an alternative to enter Manhattan from downtown Brooklyn, the Sands St Terminal.Once the BRT/BMT had other destinations in Manhattan other than Park Row, the rapid transit traffic of a growing population shifted to the subway routes, especially, after WWI, when the Dual Contracts linked some of the El routes to the subway. The Fourth Ave Subway initially made the 5th and 3rd Ave Els redundant and after the Dual contracts, the Sea Beach, West End and Culver lines were all improved and linked to the 4th Ave Subway, which substantially reduced the amount of El traffic to the Sands St Terminal upper loop. So, the El routes from downtown Brooklyn East had the most utility, the Fulton, Myrtle and Lexington Ave Lines went to East NY and branched out from there. The Lexington Ave route offered the East NY destination to the Myrtle Ave El. The Northern part of the Myrtle Ave El became part of the Dual Contract improvements and was linked to the Broadway El, which also reduced some downtown Brooklyn traffic on the Myrtle Ave El. |
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| (1111742) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Oct 24 16:29:14 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Oct 23 22:33:27 2011. I recall seeing signs at Bway/Nassau indicating that transfers to the B-69 (McDonald Av) bus were available from the same agent's booth that Myrtle Av transfers were. Also I recall seeing a transfer box at High St similar to the ones that used to be at Franklin/Fulton with a sign directing passengers to deposit B-69 bus transfers there. Why it was only the B-69 and not nay of the other bus lines that formerly crossed the Bkln Br as trolley lines, I don't know although the B75 pretty much duplicated the IND Culver line for its entire length whereas the B-69 did deviate from the subway for a good portion of its route. |
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| (1111743) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Oct 24 16:43:40 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 21 09:58:52 2011. I never heard of any plans to eliminate the Bway IRT to V/C although it does look like there is a provision for extension of the IND past 207 St. As for the Culver, it was always in the minds of the city planners to connect the IND to the Culver structure as was done in 1954. The Jamaica el removal only applied to the portion between Alabama Av and Cypress Hills which was to have been replaced by a new structure completely over Jamaica Av between E Pky/Bway Jct and Cypress Hills to eliminate the curves at Crescent St and Cypress Hills and provide a straighter route. The only proposal involving the Sea Beach Line was a proposal ti connect the Culver Line to the Sea Beach via a new structure along Bay Pky, a ramp down to the Sea Beach ROW at that point and demolishing the Culver structure between Bay Pky and W 8 St. Although the original plans called for the iND to replace the Fulton St El for its entire length, by the time WW II had started, the decision had been made to recapture the outer portion of Fulton and connect it to the Fulton St subway as was done. |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Oct 25 21:42:25 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by MELLOW ONE on Mon Oct 24 14:24:10 2011. I guess Sands St. wouldn't have been of much use then. Looking at the satellite pictures, there are 2 subway stations within a couple of blocks of Sands St. approximate location, plus Sands St. wasn't all that close to the waterfront either. I thought the el terminal would have been closer to the water, and thus the Myrtle Ave. el could have provided better waterfront service than the subways could provide, due to their depth. |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MELLOW ONE on Wed Oct 26 00:07:41 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by 3-9 on Tue Oct 25 21:42:25 2011. I believe that the Fulton Ferry El station on the waterfront ceased being a station in the 20's. That platform on Furman St is a mystery to me. I assume that it was an employee platform. Maybe passengers were able to ride out there also. The Fulton El also had a terminal station next to (South) of the Sands St Terminal. |
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| (1112223) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 13:05:32 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by MELLOW ONE on Wed Oct 26 00:07:41 2011. Fulton Ferry ceased being a regular station, after ferry service ended 01/19/24. After that, it was open only during rush hours for local trains. Since service was limited only to rush hours, the north side platform was demolished. Most of the trackage between Sands St and Fulton Ferry was retained for off-peak storage. |
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| (1112228) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 13:24:43 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by MELLOW ONE on Mon Oct 24 14:24:10 2011. The Fourth Ave subway gradually, not initially, made the 5th Ave- Bay Ridge el redundant. It did not happen overnight. But, the BMT should have shut down the 5th Ave el in 1932, when it closed the Sands Street loop. By then, you had 4th Ave express and local services via the bridge or tunnel to the Broadway subway, as well as the Culver subway to Nassau Street. Why the BMT kept the "Rusty Old El", as it was known back then, remains a mystery to me! |
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| (1112234) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 13:37:04 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 07:52:15 2011. I thought the entire park Row terminal was demolished in the summer of 1944. Yes, I am aware of the date, March 5th, 1944. The wartime federal railroad bureaucracy prohibited the City from tearing it down in 1943. But, I am looking for the time, if possible, that the last train left Park Row on 3/05/44 and, also, the time it ran through Bridge/Jay on that date. |
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| (1112242) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 14:32:56 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 21 03:08:09 2011. The top of the Board of Transportation's list, in 1947, was the construction of the 2nd Ave subway. Plans were revised to connect it to the Manhattan and Williamsburgh Bridges. The South 4th St/Utica proposal was abandoned during the war, along with the Pitkin ave tunnel (Long Live 76th St!!!). The last map reference that I could find for the proposed S.4/Utica line was in 1939. WWII and Unification doomed most of the Second System proposals! |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 26 14:49:42 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 14:32:56 2011. Based on the way that the area around Euclid that we definitely know about was constructed, I think that the idea of a subway further down Pitkin lasted until sometime after the war. Otherwise there would have been no reason to include 76 St on the Euclid model board which was ordered postwar. If the idea had been dropped during the war, there would have been no reason to go to the expense of installing the right hand side of the Euclid machine which in addition to displaying 76 St also had the associated push buttons for the additional signals in the area which were also installed. Additionally, the Pitkin Yd interlocking machine also has provisions for yard leads connecting to an eastward extension of the Pitkin subway and those yard leads actually did see limited use until they were removed in the 1960s. |
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| (1112252) | |
Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 26 14:54:57 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by 3-9 on Tue Oct 25 21:42:25 2011. If the Sands St terminal had been any closer to the water, it would have been unable to serve trains going over the Bkln Br. As was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, once Fulton Ferry service ceased, there would have been no point in having trains serve the waterfront. |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 26 15:01:57 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 13:24:43 2011. It may have been a capacity issue. Despite the 4 Av Subway being more efficient in terms of getting Bkln residents to Manhattan, el ridership may have been just sufficient enough to justify retaining it for the time that it was kept. According to some reprints of the local Bay Ridge paper the "Spectator," in the late 1930s, there was severe overcrowding in the 4 Av subway, particularly the Culver Line which the BMT was unable to resolve due to a shortage of steel cars. A reprint of the Spectator from 1938 indicated that some relief should be realized once the proposed connection of the city (IND) subway to the Culver Line is completed. |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by MELLOW ONE on Wed Oct 26 15:39:23 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 26 14:54:57 2011. Remember, the Bridge roadway and/or trackway is about 100 feet in elevation over the shorline, where the bridge tower is. Railways in particular need a gentle slope (1 ft rise per 100 ft distance) to reach a desired elevation. That is the reason that the Sands St terminal was located where it was. The original Bridge terminal on the Brooklyn side was a duplicate of the Park Row Terminal and was inline with the bridge. The original Brooklyn terminal became completely inadequete for the traffic that the bridge generated. The Park Row terminal could not be replaced. However, it was extended in length over Park Row into City Hall Park to increase the capacity. That extension was eventually removed as rapid transit el traffic decreased over the Brooklyn Bridge to the Park Row Terminal. |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 21:43:27 2011, in response to Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by Joe on Sun Oct 16 22:02:05 2011. Anyone pick up the error in nycsubway.org in their Myrtle Ave stations? They have the closing for Grand Ave on 10/04/69, instead of 01/17/53. |
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Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 26 22:02:16 2011, in response to Re: Lexington Ave. el & Pratt Institute campus, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 26 15:01:57 2011. The overcrowding was mainly on the West End Express. The Sea Beach Express skipped 36St/4Av, during the rush hours. So, Culver el and subway riders, who did not wish to go to Nassau St or over 5th Ave, piled onto the West End Express at 9th Ave or 36 Street. |
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