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| (1036287) | |
Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Feb 12 20:39:58 2011 If the IND. Fulton Street line had been extended out Pitken Avenue, logically what would the next station after 76th Street and what would've been the first Queens express station been? Would C trains be serving 76th Street today? |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 12 20:59:12 2011, in response to Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Feb 12 20:39:58 2011. ENOUGH OF THIS 76TH STREET MANIA!!! I DON'T CARE IF THERE'S A COMPLATE STATION, HALF A STATION, OR NO STATION AT ALL!!! |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by arnine on Sat Feb 12 21:06:14 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 12 20:59:12 2011. THEN DON'T CLICK ON IT - THE TITLE SAYS IT ALL!! |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Feb 12 21:18:32 2011, in response to Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Feb 12 20:39:58 2011. This says Cross Bay Blvd. I don't now if it was going to be an express stop or if there would have been another intermediate stop between 76th St and Cross Bay
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Feb 12 21:19:32 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by arnine on Sat Feb 12 21:06:14 2011. Subject line corrected. There is no "E" in Pitkin. Now back to the debate |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Feb 12 21:22:59 2011, in response to Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Feb 12 20:39:58 2011. If the IND. Fulton Street line had been extended out Pitken Avenue, logically what would the next station after 76th StreetInfinity, and beyond. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by arnine on Sat Feb 12 21:23:34 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Train Dude on Sat Feb 12 21:19:32 2011. Thx :) |
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Re: TEAR DOWN PITKIN AVENUE AND 76TH STREET DAMMIT!!! |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sat Feb 12 21:38:25 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 12 20:59:12 2011. TEAR IT ALL DOWN TEAR IT THE F#%@ DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sat Feb 12 21:39:33 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by arnine on Sat Feb 12 21:06:14 2011. I CAN SEE 76TH STREET FROM MY HOUSE! |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by arnine on Sat Feb 12 21:41:02 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sat Feb 12 21:39:33 2011. If so then get a drill damn it :) |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 22:26:25 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sat Feb 12 21:39:33 2011. I live on 76th Street! But it's Myrtle Ave., not Pitkin. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 12 22:37:46 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 22:26:25 2011. ah,zums=ein bier,ein brastwurst her ober, |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 23:10:05 2011, in response to Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Feb 12 20:39:58 2011. Maybe this will help......(from a 1940 Hagstrom map):
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 23:12:33 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 12 22:37:46 2011. Indeed. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sun Feb 13 00:07:27 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by BMTLines on Sat Feb 12 21:18:32 2011. Good question...on the 179th Street Tower model board, which is of the same GRS NX generation, the far left has an arrow pointing off the board which says "TO PARSONS BLVD". In that case, however, Parsons Boulevard is both the next station, the next express station, AND the next tower. So I have no idea what it might be referring to.I'm trying to remember what the end of the Liberty Junction Tower model board says. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Sun Feb 13 02:26:01 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by BMTLines on Sat Feb 12 21:18:32 2011. "This says Cross Bay Blvd. I don't now if it was going to be an express stop or if there would have been another intermediate stop between 76th St and Cross BayI would think that Sutter Ave would the next local stop and Cross Bay Blvd would be the next express stop. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Sun Feb 13 02:31:07 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 23:10:05 2011. Interesting |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 05:20:27 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by N6 Limited on Sun Feb 13 02:26:01 2011. I believe that the next stop was to have been 85 St or something similar. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 05:27:15 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 23:10:05 2011. As I mentioned in a previous post about this topic, 2 things seem to be apparent on this map. First, there is no station shown in the immediate area of Bway/ENY even though the subway is shown veering off Fulton St towards the direction of the present ENY (now Bway Jct) station. Second, the station which is the principal subject of these many threads is shown as 75 St not 76 St. It seems that even though the physical route of the subway east of Rocky Av had been decided on, the names and even possibly the actual locations of the stations had not been fully finalized at the time that edition of the map was published. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 05:28:44 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 23:10:05 2011. As I mentioned in a previous post about this topic, 2 things seem to be apparent on this map. First, there is no station shown in the immediate area of Bway/ENY even though the subway is shown veering off Fulton St towards the direction of the present ENY (now Bway Jct) station. Second, the station which is the principal subject of these many threads is shown as 75 St not 76 St even though the station location appears to be in the same general area. It seems that even though the physical route of the subway east of Rocky Av had been decided on, the names and even possibly the actual locations of the stations had not been fully finalized at the time that edition of the map was published. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Feb 13 07:14:26 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Billy P. on Sat Feb 12 23:10:05 2011. Do you have a scan of the cover ?I'd like to see what it looks like. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 13 07:54:33 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 05:27:15 2011. Actually, it also doesn't show the Liberty El being taken over by the IND either. |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Feb 13 08:48:50 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 05:28:44 2011. Have you ever been to the lower level of Livonia Shop? I think much of the mystery could be solved by a few days of organized research. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 13 10:11:39 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Feb 13 00:07:27 2011. It was supposed to be an express stop. |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Sun Feb 13 10:18:09 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives), posted by Train Dude on Sun Feb 13 08:48:50 2011. What do you mean? |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Feb 13 11:12:58 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 13 10:11:39 2011. Was 76th St susposed to be a local stop or express stop ? Karl M |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Feb 13 11:17:38 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Feb 13 11:12:58 2011. Definitely local |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 13 12:05:32 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 13 07:54:33 2011. Which, AFAIK was always the intent, at least originally. The 1929 plan did have the el extended into South Jamaica. That could have changed, as IND expansion plans did change dramatically as the 30's progressed. Given the anti-el fervor in City Hall, I would not be surprised if any plan to connect the former BMT el on Liberty Ave was temporarily abandoned, until after the war. |
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| (1036459) | |
Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 13 12:11:12 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by BMTLines on Sat Feb 12 21:18:32 2011. Most of the maps I've seen showed one additional stop between "76th" St and Cross Bay Blvd, usually at 85th St. What I've never know is if Cross Bay Blvd was to be an express or local station, so I am not sure what the line would have looked like east of Euclid. 3 local stops and then the 106th St terminal? 2 local stops and then a terminal for the local (CB Blvd) and one for the express (106th St)? I don't think these things were ever fully decided upon before the decision to connect to the BMT el was made after the war. |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sun Feb 13 13:10:26 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives), posted by Train Dude on Sun Feb 13 08:48:50 2011. I was just there the other day, but never ventured downstairs. What's down there? |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sun Feb 13 13:50:05 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 05:20:27 2011. The stops were to be...76th Street (local), 84th Street (local) and Cross Bay Boulevard (four-track local/express station). Then, 105th Street & Rockaway Boulevard (two-track stub terminal). -William A. Padron ["Richmond Hill"] |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Billy P. on Sun Feb 13 13:52:54 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Feb 13 07:14:26 2011. Here you go:
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sun Feb 13 13:54:01 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Sun Feb 13 13:50:05 2011. And now I see from the Hagstrom 1940 map, the stations are listed with slight different street numbers (off each by one). Amazing, and it says the extension would have opened in 1943!!!-William A. Padron ["Ozone Park"] |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sun Feb 13 14:06:52 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 05:28:44 2011. Well, we all know the Fulton Street Line opened to Rockaway Avenue in 1936, and you've told us in the past how Broadway - East New York was built, and the tower machine dropped off, but didn't open until after the war. I would venture to guess that Hagstrom simply forgot to include it on the map, as there were so many other rail lines converging on top of each other there. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 13 14:16:55 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 13 12:05:32 2011. Also, by the time the line was routed through Broadway Junction, that station was already planned. That station was completed before the war, it even still has the old style IND tiles in it, as opposed to the post war tiles east of it. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Feb 13 14:32:36 2011, in response to Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Feb 12 20:39:58 2011. Local stop? |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by f179dj on Sun Feb 13 14:54:06 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives), posted by G1Ravage on Sun Feb 13 13:10:26 2011. Archival material. But unless one has a box number, it's next to impossible to find anything. Things are not stored in any particular order (or at least they weren't when we were storing things there 20-some-odd years ago).A box comes in, it's assigned a shelf space and ID, and stored. I'm also not sure what there retention schedule is; the space down there is not infinite, so I imagine that sooner or later stuff gets recycled. |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 13 14:58:04 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives), posted by f179dj on Sun Feb 13 14:54:06 2011. In other words,good bye 76st. |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Feb 13 15:05:08 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives), posted by f179dj on Sun Feb 13 14:54:06 2011. They should send all that stuff to the NYTM archives so their staff can catalog and scan everything. JMHO |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 13 15:08:38 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives), posted by arnine on Sun Feb 13 15:05:08 2011. I,m guessing that IF anything about 76st.was stored there,its long gone. |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives) |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Feb 13 15:25:53 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street (Transit Archives), posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 13 15:08:38 2011. Sadly I'd have to agree with you :( I just by some miracle someone kept them, but that seems doubtful |
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Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 20:04:25 2011, in response to Re: Pitkin Avenue And 76th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Sun Feb 13 13:54:01 2011. It could be that a significant amount of subway infrastructure might have been done by that time minus, of course, tracks and station finishes. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 20:06:45 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 13 12:11:12 2011. How many times do I have to post that the IND was always supposed to be connected to the Fulton St El and that the connection to the el and the subway continuing down Pitkin Ave were to coexist??? |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 20:09:14 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 13 14:16:55 2011. Not only that but it is highly possible that the ENY interlocking machine was installed even though track and signals were not since it is the last conventional interlocking machine installed on the IND before Euclid's NX machine. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by SilverFox on Sun Feb 13 20:12:34 2011, in response to Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Feb 12 20:39:58 2011. The following is from several posts I have made on the matter in 2007, along with some additional updates based upon recently-discussed "what if" projects:That four-track line was to be a tri-county cooperative effort to bring local subway service to Montauk Point along the south shore of Long Island. Reports have had it that there was actually an IND-style subway built during the 1930s that supposedly linked the Hamptons and Montauk, and maybe ran as far west as Shirley. Unfortunately, funding dried up due to World War II and this line, with completed stations and fixtures, was first orphaned and then sealed and backfilled, never having run a train. The Queens portion was to run past Euclid Avenue with stops at 76th Street (where there exists a full station with ample evidence of its existence and several R-9 cars modified for running along this mega-line that were forgotten after testing and trapped by the backfilling that later occurred), Cross Bay Boulevard, Van Wyck Expressway/Kennedy Airport, 150th Street, Farmers Boulevard, North Hangar Road, Rockaway Blvd, Sunrise Highway/Laurelton Expressway, and Hook Creek Boulevard. To avoid jurisdictional issues, the tracks ended at a "sliding table track" able to shift entire trains and their passengers onto an adjoining set of Nassau County rails that began at the Queens/Nassau border, where newly-appointed motormen and conductors from the new MTA Nassau Subway division would take over until a similar arrangement was reached at the Suffolk Border, where -- you guessed it! -- MTA Suffolk Subway crewmembers would pilot the train to Montauk with maybe a crew change in Shirley. The loamy sand and soil of Long Island lends itself to tunneling on the cheap and fast. And the concrete was to be mixed from the garnet and lodestone sands of Fire Island specially dredged for this project, giving the walls and platforms a nice reddish-brick tinge and controlling all manner of bacterial and mold growth due to the sand's high salt content. Plans were also afoot to extend the line under Long Island Sound to Southeastern Connecticut or Rhode Island, Nantucket, Cape Cod, and Portland, Maine, before continuing north to Eastern Canada, Nova Scotia, and the rest of the Maritime Provinces, making the line a truly "International Express." Recently, on the Discovery Channel, they were discussing whether or not a transoceanic tunnel was feasible, traversing the Atlantic Ocean from somewhere in North America to Europe. In my mind, for such a project to have viability, it would have to traverse a minimum of water and hit as many populated land points across it as possible, or areas that have the potential to sustain large populations. I could see the line extending from easternmost Canada, touching land at Greenland and Iceland, and then heading south through Scotland to England, to London, before connecting to the Eurostar Chunnel for onward service to France and the rest of Europe. Imagine Reykjavik, Iceland, Goose Bay, Labrador, Gander, Newfoundland, and other now-godforsaken, desolate barrens becoming cosmopolitan population centers! While this may seem very far-fetched, remember that in the 1930s, the subway was basically THE mode of transportation in the City and there was still a great deal of pro-subway sentiment. Had the Eastern section and the Queens section been connected and the line to Montauk operated as planned, Mayors and Governors from the cities and states along the proposed route extension would have had enough time to evaluate the positive effect the Montauk Subway Route would have generated for our region, making them amenable to kicking in the untold billions necessary in order to gain a piece of the pie. True, there were the Pennsylvania, Penn Central, New Haven, and other railroads operating at the time more suited to the task of long distance travel, however the subway was very local in scope and was designed for constant stops every 1500 or so feet so as to spur greater development along its right-of-way, which is what the politicians wanted to see. They weren't planning on having someone ride from Wakefield to Halifax on $2.00 as much as taking local residents a few miles out of their center point on a rolling basis, creating a slightly broader catchment area for merchants along the route. Should that route have begun its cross-sound trek today, I am sure Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun would have paid for a spur going straight into their casino floor, thereby amortizing the cost to the government jurisdictions through which the right-of-way would have originally passed. Everybody would have won. But today, it takes a bridge nearly 20 years to be painted. Oh well. Not only were the civilian governments along the right-of-way keenly interested in public transport through their jurisdictions, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was champing at the bit over the prospects of using all that excavated sand, silt, and rock from the cross-Sound tunnel project to build an archipelago of artificial islands similar to those used in the building of the Rockaway Line in order to create enough isolated land for top-secret military projects as well as anchorages for the much-talked-about cross-Sound automobile bridge project from Orient and/or Montauk Point to southern New England. It is such a perfect symbiotic mesh: The tunnel would be built to accommodate rolling and continuous short-stretch traffic while the byproducts of its construction would be used to provide more land and better transportation options for those wishing to travel longer distances. The surface facet need not even include a bridge. It could remain at surface level about ten or so feet above sea level and include lanes for automobiles, commercial traffic, and even LIRR tracks taking trains into an intermodal (bus/boat/rail) transportation terminal somewhere along the New England coastline, streamlining transportation efficiency better than the patchwork system in place now. Anybody with half a mind's interest in the geography and politics of the region could see this: There were clues scattered about that had to come together some way. Euclid Avenue's tracks extended past 76th Street to be connected to a line that went to at least the City Line. The East End (Long Island) Subway was built in anticipation of the Queens line's eastward march to eventually meet it in Shirley after jurisdictional issues were ironed out. The best way to fund an overwater bridge requiring tons and tons of fill for anchorages is to build something that produces fill -- like a tunnel -- which reduces overall costs of both projects. After all, waste not, want not. A side benefit is additional land for other uses beside bridge anchorages; in this case, military experiments. Since the line past 76th Street was never built, the East End Line became vestigial and too sparsely populated to offer any return on running trains on it, the cross-Sound tunnel plans were abandoned, and to this day we have no cross-Sound bridge. Imagine . . . Inwood to Paris, France and beyond for $2.50. And the lack of a 76th Street station is what prevented that dream from occurring. |
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| (1036603) | |
Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 20:12:37 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Feb 13 14:06:52 2011. Well, I do know that the 1956 Hagstrom map showing the under construction IND connection to the Fulton St El along with the Rockaway Line branching off at Liberty Jct showed neither a projected date for opening nor any station names. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 14 22:07:39 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by SilverFox on Sun Feb 13 20:12:34 2011. And all that is left of the Nassau and Suffolk subway system is a stub web page at www.lisubway.org. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Fytton on Tue Feb 15 06:45:32 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by SilverFox on Sun Feb 13 20:12:34 2011. It isn't April 1st.... |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 15 07:24:55 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 13 20:06:45 2011. So? That doesn't mean that the plans were every completely ironed out for the Pitkin line to Cross Bay. We KNOW they were to coexist, but that doesn't mean the Pitkin plan for station configuration was ever completely determined. Once the line was ONLY set to go to Grant, further development on the plans for the other line never were pursued further. |
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Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Feb 15 13:03:09 2011, in response to Re: Pitken Avenue And 76th Street, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 15 07:24:55 2011. Who ever said that the line was only set to go to Grant? |
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