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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:28:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 4 06:55:39 2011. I have no idea. I have never heard that ever mentioned. Obviously, if the station was used (such as Court St was for a short while), there would be record of it. Even the most vocal people out there claiming this thing exists have never said it was ever in use, much less the years! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:32:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 03:18:59 2011. To add, it couldn't have been used as a terminal because it was never supposedly finished on one side, thus an unfinished station, but if it had been, it could have been used as a terminal, even if side platform local station. Remember, Rockaway Ave was used as a terminal for many years during the war and just after, and that too was a local station set up. Flatbush Ave, and other stations also are used as terminals, even if set up as side platfroms. Certainly not ideal, but possible to use. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:47:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 11:09:53 2011. Yes, I don't know where he got the idea that this station ever had tracks laid in it, much less in use, or in what years! I never heard anyone claim there were tracks in the station, much less in use for three years! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 12:27:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:47:53 2011. Don't you? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 12:52:24 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 12:27:31 2011. ?????That's the April FOols page. We all know that page was a joke, who is saying it's factual? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 13:00:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 4 06:55:39 2011. It's the timeframe that the 76ers say those tunnels were used for storage.I consider that to be operational if true. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 13:18:52 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:32:50 2011. here are the most likely chronology of events surrounding tunnel construction in that area.1. The BOT decides to build a Pitkin subway that extends to at least the Rockaway Line and eventually beyond. 2. BOT draws up plans for that. 3. BOT starts construction. 4. BOT gets as far as just past the big parking lot with construction and encounters expensive hydrological challenges past the dip that slows pace of construction. 5. Since construction stops due to the war, that segment never reaches 76th St. Dirt and other unfinished business remains in the tunnel. 6. After the war, BOT realizes that continuing on its original plans is too expensive and decides to link to the Liberty El only. Some of the unfinished tunnel used for storage and other operations till 1952. 7. Water and safety problems plague that tunnel segment. BOT decides to seal and abandon it. To protect the wall from water seepage, dirt is packed just beyond the wall. 8. The End. No conspiracies. No nothing. This post of mine is the closest to explain what actually happened. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 4 13:24:34 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:32:50 2011. IIRC A trains used the express tracks at Rockaway Ave.; the local tracks were covered over and the platforms extended out to the first row of I-beams between each local and express track. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 13:32:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 12:52:24 2011. I think some people are failing to distinguish between the unsubstantiated claims that are actually being made and Joe Brennan's parody of them. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 4 13:48:43 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:15:30 2011. Wasn't there photos of the wall with the signal facing the wall ? and another of the shovel laying against this wall ? what happened to these photos or are they a mystery as well ? and is supposed station an island station or one that's against the wall ? Karl M |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Teddmann on Fri Feb 4 13:51:10 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 4 13:48:43 2011. >> Wasn't there photos of the wall with the signal facing the wall ? and another of the shovel laying against this wall ? what happened to these photos or are they a mystery as well ?the photos can be found here. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 14:02:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 4 13:48:43 2011. Yes there is,my photos that were posted for me & my shovel,still there after all these years.local stations,4 track ROW.I,m looking at the letter bernie linder wrote to me 10 years ago that I mentioned several post back.From what I see from his hand drawn track map the yard leads were to come in on the n/b& s/b EXPRESS TRACKS,then switch over to the local tracks.also another member of this board posted photos of the same when I took him there.HEY CLAYTON,repost them.It seems that 76st was a topic of discussion going back a good many years before the internet was invented. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 14:02:52 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 4 13:48:43 2011. Yes there is,my photos that were posted for me & my shovel,still there after all these years.local stations,4 track ROW.I,m looking at the letter bernie linder wrote to me 10 years ago that I mentioned several post back.From what I see from his hand drawn track map the yard leads were to come in on the n/b& s/b EXPRESS TRACKS,then switch over to the local tracks.also another member of this board posted photos of the same when I took him there.HEY CLAYTON,repost them.It seems that 76st was a topic of discussion going back a good many years before the internet was invented. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:27:55 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 4 13:32:20 2011. Ahh, I see. So SMAZ actually thinks that people believe that the alleged station was actually open for a few years? If he actually believes that people believe that April Fool's page to be factual? LOL. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:29:42 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 13:00:28 2011. The 76ers never claimed the station was actually open, nor operational. There were however claims that they used to store trains on the tracks the would have led to the station. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 14:38:45 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 02:54:30 2011. If you notice, it looks like the space for the entrance is in the street next to the building rather than on the avenue. As I mentioned in another post, that seems to be characteristic of all the stations along Pitkin Av except for Euclid which has entrances on both Pitkin and Euclid Aves. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:44:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 13:18:52 2011. here are the most likely chronology of events surrounding tunnel construction in that area.1. The BOT decides to build a Pitkin subway that extends to at least the Rockaway Line and eventually beyond. 2. BOT draws up plans for that. Yes. 3. BOT starts construction. Construction commenced on the whole line before the war. Broadway East New York was completely finished, tiled and ready to go, however, the station lacked the running rails and the metal for the signaling because the war effort needed metal. Liberty, Van Siclen, Shepherd, Euclid and their tunnels were also all built, and were shell stations. The war halted construction. It's not out of the realm that construction went as far as 76th St in some shape or form. THAT is where the loophole exists for this alleged station to have been built, just how far was it that construction got before the war ended construction. 4. BOT gets as far as just past the big parking lot with construction and encounters expensive hydrological challenges past the dip that slows pace of construction. 5. Since construction stops due to the war, that segment never reaches 76th St. Dirt and other unfinished business remains in the tunnel. We don't know that, that is pure speculation. 6. After the war, BOT realizes that continuing on its original plans is too expensive and decides to link to the Liberty El only. Money ran out after the war and plans changed. Priorities changed. But that still doesn't prove nor disprove that this alleged station was built. Anything we say on it is pure speculation or assumption, not fact. Some of the unfinished tunnel used for storage and other operations till 1952. Yes, that is what is claimed. But we don't know how far the tunnel went, and it's speculation to say how far it went without documentation. It went "some distance", large or small, past the current wall. 7. Water and safety problems plague that tunnel segment. BOT decides to seal and abandon it. To protect the wall from water seepage, dirt is packed just beyond the wall. Water problems is correct, but again, that doesn't determine just how far the tunnel went. We also don't know what was sealed or filled in with dirt, or how much, if that is the case. Again, PURE speculation. 8. The End. Not in the least. While I don't believe there's anything there, there's enough circumstantial evidience here for the claim that something "could" be there. There is no evidence to prove it's there, and since there is circumstantial evidence of the remote possibility, there is no evidence to prove it wasn't built. No conspiracies. No nothing. This post of mine is the closest to explain what actually happened. No, your post is the "closest to explain" what YOU THINK happened. Your opinion is not fact, and has no more baring on the topic than anyone else, as you have nothing but speculation, just as anyone else. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 14:48:43 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 11:09:53 2011. The C/R in question was probably the same C/R who told me about it, since we both knew Bernie Linder. According to this C/R, contrary to what you are saying, the S/B lcl track A1 did go at least partially into the station since he claimed to have seen the partial station shell from the train he was on. What lends an iota of credibility to the possibility that A1 track did go further, even if not entirely into the station, is that the concrete bulkhead that is now in place zig zags so that A1 track is about 50 ft shorter than the other 3 tracks. There seems to be no logical reason for that to have been done even when the TA had abandoned plans to go further since a full length track could have been used for an additional underground layup. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:54:08 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 4 13:24:34 2011. I am not sure, I have never seen photos of the operation there as a terminal. I know the upstairs el station at Rockaway Ave was built identical to the stations like of the Broadway el local stations. Center track, side platforms, local tracks, and the exact same station construction for the canopies. There, they covered over the express track with a wooden platform. I assume that may mean they only used the center wooden platfroms, and the real outer ones were unused. It's amazing how these stations were exact duplicates of the Broadway El stations.
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 14:54:51 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:44:15 2011. Water seepage,does anyone besides me realize that you FIX a leak from where its coming from?the floor of the tunnel is ballast, water would leak under it even if it was backfilled with dirt.wouldn`t it seep up into the street at a certain point,causing a collapse. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:55:05 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 4 13:48:43 2011. Yes. But that only proves that they were "planning" to go further, and the signals were a part of the contract of the whole Euclid interlocking. Whether they were ever used or not is not known. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:01:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:27:55 2011. No. I believe the accounts that the tunnel beyond the wall was used for layups for a period of time.Except that such tunnel only extends for a very short distance. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:02:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:29:42 2011. But the 76ers claim that the track extends all the way to 76th St where there is a semi-finished station.Such claims are nonsense. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:05:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:44:15 2011. Actually, the stoppage of construction due to the war tends to lend more credence to the possibility of the line having been constructed as far as 79 St, a few blocks past the end of the station. Remember that the subway infrastructure was completed at least as far as Euclid and the yard leads as well as Pitkin Yard. The late trainmaster George Abere mentioned that he used to pass by the wall of Pitkin Yd along Linden Blvd on the way to school during WWII and always wondered what was behind it. It actually seems more logical that construction would have stopped as alleged due to the war, in the middle of nowhere rather than neatly at a place like Euclid. An old Hagstrom map shows the line to around 106 St under construction and due to open in 1943. Since it doesn't look like construction of the line S/O Rockaway Av started until unification in mid 1940, its conceivable that once \construction started on that portion of the line, it continued at a fever pace until the money ran out due to the war effort which would have been shortly after December 7, 1941. A lot of construction could have taken place in that year and a half even though the track and station finishes couldn't be completed. Bway/ENY actually was in a similar state to the way 76 St was described since the station finish was completed before the war but the rails and signals had not been installed. After the war, construction resumed on the portions of the line that were built most likely starting with the station finishes which could explain the partial station finish on only the S/B platform at 76 St. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 15:07:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:02:48 2011. I haven't seen any of the 76ers claim that. The only place I have seen that is in the known April Fools page.There's too many conspiracy theory levels going on here. One, as you claim that people are claiming a full fledged station was there, all ready to go, to more realistic ones which claim the TA may have built at least part of the station in some form. The possibility "does" exist because of the history of the line, and the stop and go construction over a couple decades. "If" there was a place for this to be possible, it's here. Just how much of it, if any at all, is what is up for debate, and no proof either way has been shown. There's circumstantial evidence to suggest that at least the possibility exists, and there's no concrete proof either way. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 15:10:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:01:15 2011. Yes, that is quite possible. "Just" how far is what is up for debate, and no one has been able to prove either way. What "you believe" is no more factual than what "I" or someone else believes is there. I happen to agree with you actually, I don't believe the station was built. However, that is MY theory, and I am still open to the possibility that more could have been built, as NEITHER theory has enough evidence. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Qveensboro_Plaza on Fri Feb 4 15:11:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 14:38:45 2011. I am very, very, very, loath even to wade into this discussion.But here is my own two cents on the possible location of stairways: If you look at the NYCDOT aerial photos from 1924 on, the blocks to the west of what is now 76 street, on the north side of Pitkin [i.e. Drew Street] houses have already been built. As opposed to the undeveloped streets to the east, which are still mostly vacant in 1951. If the city were planning a station at 76 Street, it would have made sense, IMHO, to have an exit at the western end, which was already populated. The elementary school on the southwest corner of Drew Street has ample setback space for a future subway exit. It may have been built at the same time as the subway construction. On the northwest corner, there is now a curious slight setback from the property line that does not appear in the 1924 photo. It is basically a notch to widen the sidewalk along Pitkin near the corner, but I wonder if the city had made an easement there in anticipation of a future exit. Since the houses on the north side of Pitkin/Drew were already in place when any subway construction might have taken place, I think it is worth considering the possibility that an access point to the station might actually have been constructed there, rather than at 76 or 77 streets. The problem with this theory, however, is that a four-block long concourse is highly unlikely. And if, as has been suggested, the setbacks by the commercial building at 77 Street were provisions for the eastern exit stairs, then the western ones would have most likely at Ruby Street, not Drew. But, of course, no one really knows... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Feb 4 15:15:07 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Teddmann on Fri Feb 4 13:51:10 2011. Oh, thank you. Karl M |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 15:19:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:05:38 2011. Exactly, and that is exactly the reason why I have an open mind to the possibility of this alleged station. They were never planning to STOP construction, so it's completely plausible that the line was being built right up to about 79th. It would have been "neatly" ended at Euclid or the yards, as the whole line was supposed to be under construction. They didn't know the events of Dec 7, 1941 were coming. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 15:19:51 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:05:38 2011. Exactly, and that is exactly the reason why I have an open mind to the possibility of this alleged station. They were never planning to STOP construction, so it's completely plausible that the line was being built right up to about 79th. It would NOT have been "neatly" ended at Euclid or the yards, as the whole line was supposed to be under construction. They didn't know the events of Dec 7, 1941 were coming. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:21:09 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 14:54:51 2011. Any seepage is caused from the water table. The area west of the dip is on higher ground and stable. The area after the dip on Pitkin is in the Spring Creek flood plain. Any tunnel is below the water table. It's why the streets were raised there.Water seepage,does anyone besides me realize that you FIX a leak from where its coming from?the floor of the tunnel is ballast, water would leak under it even if it was backfilled with dirt.wouldn`t it seep up into the street at a certain point,causing a collapse. A tunnel built and abandoned much past Elderts Lane would indeed risk a street collapse. The fact that that street has never had any such problems is another indicator that the tunnel could not have made it even up to the school. What was left of it beyond the walls has most likely been integrated into the sewer and drainage system. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 15:26:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:21:09 2011. question: Is it a proven fact that there is a water problem there,or just hearsay? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:26:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:54:08 2011. The reason that they are almost duplicates of the Bway Bkln el stations is because they were rebuilt to dual contract specs at about the same time. I can only speculate as to why the IND was initially ended at Rocky Av instead of continuing farther but I believe it was because at the time the line was built that far, the routing of the remainder of the Fulton St Line had not yet been finalized. One proposal called for it to continue straight out Fulton St under the present J Line structure. Another had the route swinging east under Liberty Av instead of down to Pitkin. Both of these routings included connecting to the Fulton St el at about the present location. Since the original Fulton St El had no station at the Bway Jct complex, once unification had been accomplished, the city routed the next portion of the Fulton St subway slightly north under Truxton Pk so that a station could be built closer to the Bway Jct complex and provide a transfer to the Jamaica and Canarsie lines. All of the other proposed routings called for some portion of the IND to go farther into Eastern Queens and for whatever reason, the Pitkin Av route was chosen with a proposal not only to connect to the outer portion of the Fulton St El but to extend the new subway farther out Pitkin Av to S/E Queens although the plans were shortened to terminate the Pitkin subway at 106 St with a connection from that portion of the line to the LIRR. One of the considerations for using the Fulton St Line to access the Rockaways instead of the Qns Blvd Line as originally envisioned may have been that the postwar population along Qns Blvd had increased to the point that the Qns Blvd Line lacked the capacity for the additional Rockaway service whereas the Fulton St Line was able to handle the additional service. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:32:12 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 15:26:01 2011. From what I heard that is the principal reason that construction of the subway past that point was never pursued. The water problem may not be as far west as Eldert Lane but may have been encountered around the area where the subway infrastructure is reported to end. I do have some doubts about the severity of that however since there is a cemetery in the area and I would think that a severe water condition would preclude having a true cemetery in that area as is the case in New Orleans where the crypts are above ground. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:35:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 15:10:31 2011. What is surprising is that neither the TA nor the MTA wanted to pursue the issue further since even if a partial station or just a tunnel existed at that point it could be actively used as an underground yard especially useful during cold weather plans. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 15:41:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:35:39 2011. As"THE JOE"posted here years ago,it simply forgotten about. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:46:02 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Qveensboro_Plaza on Fri Feb 4 15:11:15 2011. Well according to a Hagstrom map I saw that showed the portion of the subway east of Rocky Av to open in 1943, the station in the area of the Bkln/Qns border was labeled as 75 St not 76 St. 75 St and Ruby St are the same street so that might have made sense. There are, however instances during the construction of all 3 subway divisions where stations were proposed with one name and actually opened under another. 205 St on the D line is an example. Although the station is referred to publicly as "205 St," on the original model boards at both Bedford Pk and 205 St towers, it is referred to as "Perry Ave." I have also seen documentation that seems to indicate that Bway/Nassau St station was to be called Fulton St even though it was never called that until its name was officially changed recently. W4 St station actually has no entrances at W4 St at all although I have seen what looks like a provision for such an entrance in the form of a closed agent's booth on the east side of the middle mezzanine. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:50:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 15:10:31 2011. and I am still open to the possibility that more could have been built, as NEITHER theory has enough evidence.But there IS enough evidence. The old urban legends all developed before the city and other websites made those historical aerial photos available. While skeptical, I was just as open-minded as you on the possibilities, especially considering that weird yard on the NW corner of Pitkin/76 next to that building. Those pics put all such speculation to rest. Once you get past the dip after Elderts, any tunnel would not have been deep without diving steeply, especially with the yard lead tracks going over/under the main tracks. Such a dramatic incline would have started much west of there in the tunnel area still accessible. Instead, in reality the trackway would have most likely been just a few feet below the natural street level. A mezzanine would have been just a few below the raised street level with utilities over that. Knowing this, the 1951 pic of the section between Ruby and 77th would have exposed any station superstructure (the mezzanine roof) sticking out from the sides of Pitkin, considering that the empty lots there drop by multiple feet below the raised Pitkin and there is even foundation construction on the SW corner of 76/Pitkin. You can see that the contours of the houses there perfectly match those foundations in later pics, including the space for driveways. If the City were to one day make available pictures of construction not going much past Elderts Lane, the 76ers will say that construction beyond hadn't yet started (or was already finished) or come up with more excuses to keep believing. It's like with Birthers or Truthers. No matter how much evidence is presented to them, they will come up with some other reason to push their belief beyond the bounds of rational forensic proof. my analysis OTOH, is a point by point breakdown of why there cannot be a station there. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:51:40 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 14:55:05 2011. Exactly. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:56:09 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 21:52:28 2011. If you notice, the entrances along Pitkin are in the cross streets, not on Pitkin itself except for Euclid. Getting back to the possible setbacks, since it seems that Pitkin Av/Old South Rd east of Ruby St were realigned possibly around the time of the subway construction and according to some 1951 photos, there were no sidewalks built in the area at the time, Its highly likely, as I mentioned in several posts, that by the time sidewalks were installed, the city had abandoned any plans for using whatever might have been constructed and thus the sidewalks were installed without any provision whatsoever for subway entrances. That could explain why there are no sealed entrances in the area since they were probably never there in the first place. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 15:56:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 15:07:53 2011. no concrete proof either way.Heh. That's where a radar sled would come in handy ... to PROVE the concrete. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 15:58:57 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 4 09:50:20 2011. OK ... we'll pencil you in for "negative faith" then ... definition: "A religious belief in the impossibility of a possibility." :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 16:03:57 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:05:38 2011. An old Hagstrom map shows the line to around 106 St under construction and due to open in 1943.And just for the same reasons that 106th was never built, there is no reason to believe that 76th was. Construction stopped somewhere and the best available evidence makes me believe that it was just past Elderts Lane. Since it doesn't look like construction of the line S/O Rockaway Av started until unification in mid 1940, its conceivable that once construction started on that portion of the line, it continued at a fever pace until the money ran out due to the war effort which would have been shortly after December 7, 1941. But that fever pace hit unplanned water problems east of Elderts Lane that probably slowed construction. Instead of taking it to 79th, construction was probably still at Forbell when the war came and construction stopped. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:04:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by sloth on Thu Feb 3 23:55:19 2011. George Abere and I saw at least one manhole cover in the middle of Pitkin in the middle of the block between Grant and Eldert which was marked "Independent Subway System" in 1983. When I went back there in 2005, the street had been repaved and the manhole was gone. When George and I first checked out the area in the winter 1962 it was after dark and it was difficult to see what might have been there. When we checked it out in 1983, in the daylight we found the manhole and we could tell that there had been some repaving and sidewalk reconstruction done. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 16:06:09 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:32:50 2011. Even if they wanted to somehow use an unfinished station as a terminal, the track plan would offer no way to relay or move the train to another track to come back out. It was a piddly little local stop and any plan to have used it for a terminal would have required a major rework of the tracks. Just sayin' ... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:07:42 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 4 09:56:41 2011. Another consideration might have been the presence of the race track in the path of a line that might have been built straight along the Pitkin/Old South Rd corridor. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 16:10:51 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 14:38:45 2011. Yep ... and like you said about 205/Perry, IND did have a penchant for putting the entrances "around the corner" at many of the stops I've used. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:12:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:02:48 2011. If such a station shell did not exist, then how do you account for the almost identical descriptions of the station at different times by different people who never met each other? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 4 16:24:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 15:05:38 2011. Sorta makes you wonder why Broadway- East New York was not opened in 1936, in addition to Rockaway Ave and the western section of the Fulton subway. My mother always wondered the same thing. She took the Jamaica Ave streetcar from Jamaica/Pennsylvania to Fulton/Rockaway. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Feb 4 16:26:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 15:50:27 2011. While I have not been to the station itself, I have been to the end of track S/O Euclid as well as along the accessible trackways of A7 and A8 as well as K5 and K6 and as I said in another post, the mainline tracks of the Fulton St Subway are at least 3 levels below the street. The tunnels for the Grant Av station are the closest to street level and that station is actually pretty deep itself. Next come the tunnels for K5 and K6 yard leads which would be beneath the Grant Ave station and on approximately the same plane as the A7 and A8 yard leads from Pitkin Yd which are 2 levels below the street. That means that the station shell itself even allowing for the dip in Pitkin Av has to be at least 2 levels below the street and probably even deeper since the Pitkin Av mainline tracks continue downgrade towards the concrete bulkhead at the end of track. With the possibility that Pitkin was through routed with old South Rd in conjunction with subway construction, it is extremely doubtful that the city would not have constructed the subway shell sufficiently below ground so as to make it not visible from either the street itself or the adjacent properties. |
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