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Ukraine

Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 22 17:41:51 2014

fiogf49gjkf0d
So why doesn't the east just rejoin Russia and the west remain Ukraine and join the EU? Then everyone would be happy.

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(1158184)

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 22 18:18:51 2014, in response to Ukraine, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 22 17:41:51 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I suspect that might be the end game. There are so many differences on either side of Ukraine. But then Ukraine is a proud nation as well and would want to try to prevent that. Stay tuned ...

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(1158239)

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 22 22:47:23 2014, in response to Ukraine, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 22 17:41:51 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
You're advocating partition? How imperialistic of you.

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(1158242)

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 00:06:20 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 22 22:47:23 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Partition is not necessarily imperialistic.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 00:48:10 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 22 22:47:23 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
If it were to happen (and I doubt it will), the western portion of what is now Ukraine USED to be Poland, Belarus and parts of other European territories before what became modern Ukraine. So the "partition" you speak of would actually be a reversion to its prior components. Still, I don't think Ukrainians want that. They just want Russia to STFU and leave them alone. Except for the far eastern part of Ukraine which is every bit as Russian as Petrograd and ethnically Russian.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 01:50:51 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 00:06:20 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Historically, it's most commonplace with empires.

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(1158319)

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Re: Ukraine: Gorbachev puts his 2˘ in

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 03:26:43 2014, in response to Ukraine, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 22 17:41:51 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Associated Press
Feb 23, 2014 2:38 AM EST

Gorbachev: Ukraine failed to act democratically

Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev said Sunday that the crisis in Ukraine stems from the government's failure to act democratically.

He spoke a day after demonstrators took over the capital of Kiev and seized the president's office as parliament voted to remove him and hold new elections.

Protesters first took to the streets of Kiev late last year after President Viktor Yanukovych abandoned an agreement that would have strengthen his country's ties with the European Union in favor of seeking closer cooperation with Moscow.

"Ultimately this is the result of the failure of the government to act democratically" and to engage in dialogue and fight corruption, Gorbachev said during an address to a forum on government communications in the city of Sharjah in the United Arab Emirates.

He added that the root cause of the unrest in Ukraine was an "interruption of perestroika," referring to his reform policies, and of the democratic process there.

The 82-year-old Gorbachev was the last leader of the Soviet Union, and the reforms he put in place helped lead to the fall of Communism.

After becoming the Soviet leader in March 1985, he pursued the policies of using "glasnost" or openness, and "perestroika" or restructuring. While his intent had been only reform, the policies brought about democratic changes that eventually led to the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Gorbachev won the 1990 Nobel Peace Prize for his role in ending the Cold War, but he has little influence in today's Russia.

Recently he has become increasingly critical of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

In December 2011, Gorbachev urged then-Prime Minister Putin to step down as tens of thousands of protesters demanded free elections and an end to Putin's rule in the largest show of public outrage since protests 20 years ago that brought down the Soviet Union.

Moscow has backed Yanukovych. He is widely despised in western Ukraine, but has strong support in the Russian-speaking east.

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(1158324)

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Re: Ukraine: Gorbachev puts his 2˘ in

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 03:41:01 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: Gorbachev puts his 2˘ in, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 03:26:43 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Ukraine will be OK once they get past the current state of affairs. And Gorby fully understand their culture, he's right.

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(1158337)

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 08:34:09 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 00:48:10 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Crimea is Russian too, thanks to Stalin's machinations. Ukraine would be better off without its east and far south, because then a strong majority of voters would prefer a western orientation.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 08:34:47 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 22 22:47:23 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Negotiated, of course. It wouldn't work if it were just imposed by outside forces.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Fred G on Sun Feb 23 09:28:27 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 01:50:51 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
"Partition" does kind of allude to use of force, where "separation" would be negotiated, like the separation of Czechoslovakia. We can use "separation" for the Ukraine unless they act like sticks in the mud about it.

your pal,
Fred

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(1158355)

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 23 12:08:37 2014, in response to Ukraine, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 22 17:41:51 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I feel nostalgia for the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Burn in hell, Gavrilo Princip!

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Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:11:06 2014, in response to Ukraine, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 22 17:41:51 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
You can't make this stuff up
The White House | Office of the Press Secretary | For Immediate Release | February 22, 2014

Statement by the Press Secretary on Ukraine

The United States is closely monitoring developments in Ukraine. We have consistently advocated a de-escalation of violence, constitutional change, a coalition government, and early elections, and today’s developments could move us closer to that goal. The unshakeable (sic) principle guiding events must be that the people of Ukraine determine their own future. We welcome constructive work in the Rada and continue to urge the prompt formation of a broad, technocratic government of national unity. We welcome former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko’s release from a prison hospital today, and we wish her a speedy recovery as she seeks the appropriate medical treatment that she has long needed and sought.

We continue to urge an end to violence by all sides and a focus on peaceful, democratic dialogue, working pursuant to Ukraine’s constitution and through its institutions of government. Going forward, we will work with our allies, with Russia, and with appropriate European and international organizations to support a strong, prosperous, unified, and democratic Ukraine. Going forward, the Ukrainian people should know that the United States deeply values our long-standing ties with Ukraine and will support them as they pursue a path of democracy and economic development.

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(1158359)

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 23 12:15:56 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 08:34:09 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Crimea was historically Russian. That whole area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire until one of the Russo-Turkish Wars during the reign of Catherine II. Then it was called "New Russia" (cf. the city of Novorossiysk) and Russian colonists were encouraged to settle there to replace the Turks and Tatars. The port of Odessa (it of the famous steps) was founded at that time and is Russian in character. Locals still refer to streets using their pre-1991 Soviet names like "Karl Marx Avenue." Meanwhile, Crimea was actually part of the RSFSR until Khrushchev ceded it to the Ukraine.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 12:16:02 2014, in response to Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:11:06 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
The unshakeable principle guiding events must be that the people of Ukraine determine their own future.

That's a call for an autocratic government?

Putting an extra e into words like unshakeable is optional.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:41:26 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 12:16:02 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, it is a call for autocracy. All calls for autocracy were and are cloaked in a call for people determining their own future.

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(1158370)

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:43:10 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 12:16:02 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, it is a call for autocracy. All calls for autocracy were and are cloaked in a call for people determining their own future.

PS. Removal of context fail.

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(1158371)

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 12:44:16 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:41:26 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
LOL. But not all calls for people determining their own future are calls for autocracy!

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(1158372)

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:51:12 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 12:44:16 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Certainly not when you remove the context. Funny that they call for the Ukranians to determine their own future and then subsequently call for plopping an antidemocratic, autocratic technocracy on their shoulders, ain't it?

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 13:14:47 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:51:12 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Not funny at all. It's up to the people there wether they want a technocracy temporarily while they sort out their constitutional issues.

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(1158378)

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 14:10:45 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 13:14:47 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
It looks like Parliament is going to take charge, which is very democratic, even if one doesn't like what they might end up doing.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by mtk52983 on Sun Feb 23 14:53:20 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 12:41:26 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
George W. Bush said the people of Iraq and Afghanistan should determine their own future. Was he calling for totalitarian governments?

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Train Dude on Sun Feb 23 15:08:15 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Feb 23 14:53:20 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
He was calling for letting the people of those countries decide. 5 years of obamaintervention certainly has not gotten them to embrace democracy or the United States.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:33:33 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 13:14:47 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
That's as idiotic as saying "it's up to the people there whether they want National Socialism temporarily". But then again, you never complained when fascists got elected to power in Italy.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:35:33 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Feb 23 14:53:20 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
LOL, the Bushie canard. Since Iraq currently has an Islamic government (friendly to Iran) and Sharia constitution, then the answer is yes, obviously.

You're going to have to own up to the Bushes being of the libs one day.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 23 16:37:31 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:35:33 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
You're going to have to own up to yourself being of the insane one day.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:39:21 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 23 16:37:31 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
LOL, the guy calling everyone else insane is usually the least sane of all. Facts are facts and you can't erase them by slandering the messenger. Keep sweatin' to the moldies . . .

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 23 16:39:45 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 22 18:18:51 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
In a way, it's yet another religious conflict. The Catholics want closer ties to Western Europe, while the Orthodox want to be closer to Russia.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:40:56 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 23 16:39:45 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
No, it's not the old schism flaring up.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:42:00 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 14:10:45 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
That has no bearing on what the White House actually said.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 16:44:05 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 23 16:39:45 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
???

Catholics are a pretty small percentage in Ukraine.

Pretty much all Ukrainian-speaking residents of Ukraine, as well as many of the Russian-speaking ones in the western part of the country, are western-oriented.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 23 16:55:04 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:40:56 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, it is! Ukranian Catholics were discriminated against, after it's forced annexation by the USSR in 1922. Things became especially worse under the former Orthodox seminarian, Josef Stalin. The sides today are basiacally pro-Russian Orthodox vs pro-West Catholics.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 17:07:03 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 23 16:55:04 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Read my link. You're missing the single biggest religious group: the Ukrainian Orthodox. Their religion is the same as Russian Orthodox, except the services are in Ukrainian. These people are also western-oriented.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 17:12:34 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 08:34:09 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
It's mainly the northwestern part of Ukraine which identifies heavily with Europe. As Pigs explained, the east and far south is largely ethnic Russian and they speak Russian in those areas rather than Ukranian.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 17:38:06 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:35:33 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Gee ... and all you all were attacking "libs" for attacking Bush for 8 years. Y'all deserve the Goebbels award for historianism!

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 17:58:45 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 23 16:39:45 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Not religious at all. To oversimplify, you have genuine Russians of ethnic background in the east, and genuine Europeans of ethnic background in the west. It's purely an ethnic and cultural thing.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 18:00:33 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 17:38:06 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Now don't lie. That was the last thing I was doing.

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Re: Ukraine

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 23 18:00:52 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 23 16:55:04 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
While you're correct, a large number of those Catholics of the time emigrated into Poland and Romania to escape the purges.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 18:29:30 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:42:00 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
What they said was inoffensive, even anodyne.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 18:30:40 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 23 16:33:33 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
LOL. I wasn't around when (real) fascists took over Italy. My ancestors were, and they left the country. So go to hell.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 18:36:55 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 18:29:30 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Nothing Obama's White House says is inoffensive to Olog.

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Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Feb 23 19:05:14 2014, in response to Re: Ukraine: White House calls for *totalitarian* government to replace Yanukovych, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 23 18:36:55 2014.

fiogf49gjkf0d
That's right.

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