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| Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident (1020366) | |
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| (1021033) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 08:39:38 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 08:29:38 2012. When does self-defense require more than 6 rapid shots? This doesn't sound like an essential liberty but a once-in-a-decade incident.And most criminals aren't skilled enough to illegally modify a gun to take larger magazines. |
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| (1021034) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 08:43:01 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 00:35:13 2012. Why are you asking me? It wasn't my thought. |
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| (1021037) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 08:46:57 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 01:16:22 2012. There is no right to kill. Gun nuts cost us all plenty. You should be ready to pay. |
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| (1021040) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 08:50:08 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 02:26:31 2012. Freedom kills.
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 08:55:41 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 08:39:38 2012. When does self-defense require more than 6 rapid shots?When there are more than one or two armed criminals or when a sole criminal knows that he has a 20-round mag and the law-abiding citizen does not. And most criminals aren't skilled enough to illegally modify a gun to take larger magazines. Most drug dealers aren't skilled enough to produce crack and heroin from the original plants either. |
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| (1021042) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 08:58:22 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 07:36:27 2012. You are wrong. The right to liberty extends to all citizens wherever they are. In or out of their homes. I have every right to a peaceful, gun free life.Guns in public are a threat to everyone. Only those who have a legitimate purpose to carry (not just a license) should have guns in public, police and military (in limited circumstances) excluded of course. |
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| (1021044) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 09:12:33 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 08:29:38 2012. Criminals use stolen guns, for no other reason than to trace the crime to YOU, the legal owner. If they can't steal these assault weapons they won't have them either. |
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| (1021047) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 09:28:52 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 08:46:57 2012. Nobody is talking about killing. Like I said, smile in life for a change. Everything seems a lot less depressing that way. |
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| (1021052) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 10:03:16 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 09:28:52 2012. The sole purpose for a gun is to kill. |
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| (1021055) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 10:09:15 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 09:28:52 2012. ???You're talking about weapons whose only purpose is to kill multiple people. (You don't need 30 rapid fire shots to kill a deer. If you can't get the deer with 6 you have no business hunting.) |
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| (1021059) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 19 10:31:06 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 08:55:41 2012. "And most criminals aren't skilled enough to illegally modify a gun to take larger magazines."But I'll bet that they have the will and the resources to find someone who has the skills and tools to do so - for a price. |
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| (1021060) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by FWT9000 on Wed Dec 19 10:44:14 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by italianstallion on Tue Dec 18 21:00:11 2012. The Nazi party was freely elected as well. Freely elected governments can easily transform into tyranny |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 19 10:49:26 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by FWT9000 on Wed Dec 19 10:44:14 2012. And the founding fathers foresaw this possibility - hence the 2nd amendment. |
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| (1021063) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 10:51:15 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 10:09:15 2012. Banning features is a feel good measure that just raises prices. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 10:57:52 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 10:51:15 2012. That depends on the features. Banning "features" that enable mass murder is avery very good thing. I support a comprehensive semiautomatic assault weapon / large magazine ban. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 10:58:48 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 10:57:52 2012. Of course you do, it's one small step to a total ban in your eyes. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 11:02:52 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 10:58:48 2012. Wrong. It is a necessary ban. Then we need to work on strengthening and expanding background checks, training and competency regulations. California-style ammunition purchase yearly licenses do not violate the second amendment, we need that nationally. the fee for the license can fund the program. Background check fees can also be initiated, they would just be folded into the cost of a gun. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 11:07:20 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 11:02:52 2012. So your solution is to increase legislation, increase taxes, and that will magically "solve" crime? I have a bridge to sell you. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 11:14:28 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 11:07:20 2012. The need for the legislation is more than glaringly obvious. LIcense fees are not taxes. You don't need a gun. You don't need bullets. The fees involved are base don one's choice to buy a gun, to buy bullets.Nothing will "solve" crime. This will REDUCE it. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 11:20:31 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 11:14:28 2012. No, it'll drive criminal behavior to new means. But as long as a gun isn't used, you don't give a shit if someone dies. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 11:37:39 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 11:20:31 2012. How many people would Lanza or the Aurora shooter have been able to kill with a knife (or anything other than a gun)? How many urban killings in the last week would have been possible if the killers had only had knives?Obviously, a portion of the killings, but well less than half. |
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| (1021086) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 12:23:27 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 08:43:01 2012. But you pointed out:Therefore, charging people money to own a gun is equally unconstitutional. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on application fees and the like. |
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| (1021087) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 12:27:11 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 10:51:15 2012. How would banning larger magazines raise prices? |
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| (1021093) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 12:44:50 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 12:23:27 2012. I didn't point anything out. I was explaining rkba's logic, such as it was, to Fred. It should be clear from the context that I was not providing my own thoughts there. |
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| (1021105) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 13:02:34 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 18 20:54:27 2012. My view on the matter is, if you've gotten to the point where you need arms to defend the liberties you have now (or used to have), then you should really put some thought into how you got to that point in the first place.Also, arms are a great way to lose liberty as well (see "coup d'etat"). |
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| (1021106) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 13:04:36 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 13:02:34 2012. Our nation was created by such an armed populace fighting for said liberties. You're not a very astute student of American history.As for revolutions, those that result in restrictions of liberties are almost always from the top down. Governments, not armed citizens are the greatest threats to liberty. |
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| (1021122) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 13:38:48 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 13:04:36 2012. Our nation was created by such an armed populace fighting for said liberties. You're not a very astute student of American history.Notice I said "the liberties you have now (or used to have)". The King of England wasn't an elected ruler then, but we have an elected government now. Meaning, we the people have the ability to shape our government through the ballot box, among other things. If we've gotten to the point where we need arms, then you really ought to consider why it got that way. Revolutions aim to cut off the top, but don't generally don't start there (otherwise, it wouldn't be a revolution). |
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| (1021123) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 13:39:26 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 12:44:50 2012. Ah, ok. |
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| (1021130) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Dec 19 14:08:48 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by FWT9000 on Wed Dec 19 10:44:14 2012. LOL! The Nazi party WAS in fact freely elected - but everyone who voted for them knew what their platform was. The Germans chose to be destroy democracy. I can't see that happening here.Any American who thinks they need to stockpile arms to fight their own govt. is a seditious traitor. |
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| (1021132) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 14:10:25 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 13:38:48 2012. Meaning, we the people have the ability to shape our government through the ballot box, among other things.And what happens when that right is taken away from you? What if Obama states he wants to run for a third term? Whatcha gonna do about it? Complain to your congressman? |
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| (1021149) | |
Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 14:47:00 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 14:10:25 2012. What if Obama states he wants to run for a third term?Not a single Secretary of State of any individual state would list him on the ballot. That's what rule of law is all about. It's not your AR-15 with a 30-cartridge magazine that's going to stop him. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 14:49:12 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 11:37:39 2012. It's a little over one quarter of all murders that are non-gun according the stats presented.This doesn't include accidents, which account for a whole lot more lives lost yearly. I doubt either tragedy would have occurred if they weren't heavily armed. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Dec 19 14:58:32 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 14:10:25 2012. "What if Obama states he wants to run for a third term? "He won't be listed on any ballot. The courts would overrule any one that did. There would be injunctions against his running. If he persisted, we would be arrested for contempt of court. I love it when conservatives who supposedly revere America and the rule of law, have so little confidence in our institutions that they think that it could all go up in smoke in a New York minute. Some patriots. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by DanD124 on Wed Dec 19 15:02:45 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by italianstallion on Wed Dec 19 14:58:32 2012. what happens if there is a military coup who would stop the military? |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Dec 19 15:06:42 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by DanD124 on Wed Dec 19 15:02:45 2012. Heh. That has nothing to do with gun control.No amount of guns could stop the military's aircraft carriers, bombers, missiles, tanks, drones, tactical nuclear weapons, etc. Besides, the right-wingers who want guns would probably support a coup. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 15:09:36 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by DanD124 on Wed Dec 19 15:02:45 2012. If the president, Congress, and the Supreme Court can't stop the military with their assembled power, your AR-15 isn't going to do anything. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Dec 19 15:11:30 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by italianstallion on Tue Dec 18 16:40:25 2012. "Just last week, a killer slashed 20 kids in a school in China. "I'm sure they aren't scarred for life either. We should probably envy them for being slashed as well! How about we arm all the kids as well? |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 15:12:17 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 15:09:36 2012. That's especially true if they seize the factories that produce smokeless ammo for that AR-15. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 15:21:06 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 19 13:02:34 2012. So is that stray bullet shot by the inept asshole with issues. Dead people have no liberty. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 19 15:27:19 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 19 10:49:26 2012. Last year, the federal government submitted a military budget of $682 BILLION. No matter what kinds of riflery the "armed citizens" are equipped with, it won't be the slightest impediment to tanks, bombers, fighter jets, flamethrowers, drones, artillery pieces, warships, etc....Just sayin'... |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 15:33:01 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 19 15:27:19 2012. That's a budget that deserves a slash, Use some of the savings to enforce gun control, for safety and competency courses and enforcement.The NRA is constantly wailing about enforcing existing laws. Why doesn't the NRA PAY for the cost of enforcing them? |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by rkba on Wed Dec 19 15:38:37 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 15:33:01 2012. Why should they pay for something the government should already be doing? |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 19 15:42:47 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 15:33:01 2012. Actually, $682B is surprisingly low for the size and scope of our military. Think about aircraft carriers, aircraft, vehicles, ships, bases, support systems, pensions, all the structures and materials needed to recruit, equip and train personnel, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines... |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 17:02:45 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by italianstallion on Wed Dec 19 15:06:42 2012. Most of these weapons are never used in such actions. The objective is to gain control of the nation without blowing it to pieces. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 17:04:18 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 19 15:09:36 2012. A large number of them in civilian hands will make the government think twice before launching a bloodbath. Without them, it becomes much easier.The gun acts as a weapon best when it's never removed from it's holster. It's mere existence has saved more lives than it's use. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 17:26:34 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 08:58:22 2012. The right to liberty extends to all citizens wherever they are.thank you for agreeing with Judge Posner on why right-to-carry is a fundamental constitutional right. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 17:27:25 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 19 10:31:06 2012. Exactly. |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Dec 19 17:43:59 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Dec 19 15:11:30 2012. In your view, they would have been better off dead? |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 19 17:49:52 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 19 17:04:18 2012. That's why Nazi Germany banned civilians from having guns. Can't have those pesky counterrevolutions! |
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Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 19 17:59:05 2012, in response to Re: You Can't Prevent The Next Sandy Hook Incident, posted by bingbong on Wed Dec 19 15:33:01 2012. The NRA is constantly wailing about enforcing existing laws.Why doesn't the NRA PAY for the cost of enforcing them?That makes about as much sense as saying that the American Legion should pay for the VA budget or that AARP should pay for Social Security. |
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