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| Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy (951453) | |||
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 20 02:58:52 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jun 19 19:11:05 2012. Using the Gaza strip is bad because the palestinians are divided between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank so you have two voices speaking for what is supposed to be one state and neither technically respect each other.By that logic, any comparisons to the US government aren't valid either since the House of Representatives is controlled by one party and the Senate and entire Executive Branch is controlled by the other, and there are multiple voices that not everyone has voted for. Are you starting to pick and choose which democracies are valid in your eyes? That seems to be the case here. Then you go on a notion about War, do you honestly think that Egypt with the Muslim Brotherhood would want to go to War with Israel? Under the right circumstances? Yes. Their nation is broke, wars cost money, military equipment costs money and they know if they go to war there would be economic and political sanctions and they risk isolating their nation and causing a huge refugee crisis. It wouldn't take much for Israel to win that war, מלחמת ששת הימים, ring a bell? A war would be devastating and for a rebuilding Egypt even with the Muslim Brotherhood at the helm it would be in their best interests to foster relations with the west for IMF and other international funds to rebuild their nation especially if they don't they risk a coup from the military or another uprising from the people. Muslim Brotherhood needs stability and economic recovery, a war would be counter to both, even the most hardline pressed islamist in Egypt knows that. No shit, I have (and others have) been saying that for the past 18 months. When fear is set aside and common sense prevails it makes sense. If fear is set aside and common sense prevails, then yes, you are correct. But if the Muslim Brotherhood's domestic policy doesn't work out fast enough and they sense trouble, Israel is a good for uniting the people around a common cause, even if it doesn't solve the pressing economic issues. Want proof? That is why Iran for all its talk, about how much it hates Israel has yet to fire a single missile in its direction (directly not through proxy groups ala Hezbollah), and thats been the situation since the 70s! Iran hasn't fired a nuclear warhead in Israel's direction because it doesn't have any yet. Rational action in the eyes of religious fanatics isn't usually rational in the eyes of others, and plenty of people are willing to put themselves in harm's way to do what they consider to be "right." You seem to be ignoring that possibility because as the case often seems to be, you don't acknowledge that other people don't share your viewpoints and/or you don't recognize the realities on the ground or that others may not see things the way you do. Israel by definition and by the actions of the government to its people are true of a real democracy, however its foreign policy is counter to it. Especially with the use of things like White Phosphorus, bulldozing houses, and illegal settlements (under international law). Let's assume for a moment that Israel actually does all of the "war crimes" and other "illegal activities" you claim it does. So because the Palestinians don't have a "real democracy", whatever that means to you, they don't have to play by the rules either, and can use human shields, shoot rockets at civilian areas in Israel proper (about 50 in the past 24 hours, by the way), and divert humanitarian goods for its war effort? Many UN and other observer group's initial reports about Israeli actions during Operation Cast Lead have been redacted after the fact, with far less fanfare than their initial release. If you think settlement expansion is the only barrier to a peace accord between the Israelis and the Palestinians, you are very mistaken. And where is your outrage over the Turkish occupation of Northern Cyprus and all the other supposedly illegal occupations per international law around the world? And you cite how Israel won the Six Day War, how come Israel can't build and develop the territory it won during a war the way other countries do? Perhaps the Arabs shouldn't have attacked Israel time and time again, because there is always a chance you'll lose (and they did). However even if the Brotherhood came to power Israel wouldn't face the doomsday scenario you think might happen You can predict the future? When is the Second Avenue Subway opening? the article you posted said it best "I think they will be very careful not to dismantle it. These uprisings have nothing to do with Israel. Israel isn’t the reason, and Israel isn’t the solution." How closely did you read the interview? Again, if common sense prevails, then yes, the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't try to dismantle the peace treaty. But that is if and only if common sense prevails. I've already explained a likely scenario of what might happen if common sense, as seen by you and me, does not prevail. Part of the issue here is that while you and I both agree that Egypt needs to address its domestic problems, we don't agree (and you fail to acknowledge the possibility even) on what might happen if the new government fails to address those domestic issues to the satisfaction of the Egyptian people. Perhaps by being more vocal and supportive of freedom and democracy in Egypt perhaps you might be able to keep the treaty and secure the borders with Egypt even with the Muslim Brotherhood in power. George W. Bush told Israel to go along with his idea for democratic elections in the Palestinian Territories, Israel was hesitant because of a potentially very bad outcome for Israel (Hamas winning), and look what happened. You make things far simpler than they actually are. You managed to get a treaty with a dictator... so how hard can it be? You might want to read up on your history, the peace treaty was signed by Anwar al-Sadat, not Hosni Mubarak. Sadat paid for it with his life. He signed the peace treaty because he finally realized that it was better to accept Israel's existence and move on with other priorities than to keep fighting an endless war, something that other Arab governments ought to do as well if you ask me. The Muslim Brotherhood, among other organizations, discouraged Egyptians from taking advantage of the peace treaty, so there are virtually no tourists or businesspeople coming to Israel from Egypt, only the other way around (and now, there probably isn't much of a flow in that direction either). And as I've said, things in the real world are much harder and more complex than you make them out to be. You might want to read up on your history, facts, and my prior posts. Perhaps then you'll understand a bit more what is at stake and why some people on this board are disagreeing with your outlook. |
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