"Bay Ridge / Shore Rd"

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"Bay Ridge / Shore Rd"
Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 16:32:47 2024 It irks me a bit that the B9/B64 terminal and the B16/B37/B63 terminal are signed the same way even though they are far apart from each other. Either the B16/B37/B63 terminal should be signed as "Fort Hamilton" instead of "Bay Ridge" or another street beside Shore Road should be named. It wouldn't matter much if lines headed toward one terminal didn't intersect lines heading to the other, forming the impression that the southbound B63 and westbound B64 -- for example -- are heading to the same place.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Mon Nov 18 18:21:55 2024, in response to "Bay Ridge / Shore Rd", posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 16:32:47 2024.* Your complaint reminds me of when the buses in Queens would sometimes use a generic "To Flushing Subway" roll sign. This could cause confusion in places where two Flushing-bound buses shared a part of a route but diverged, e.g. Q12 and Q13 on Northern Blvd.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Westcode44* on Mon Nov 18 22:24:10 2024, in response to "Bay Ridge / Shore Rd", posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 16:32:47 2024.* In the early years the GM Old Looks displayed Fort Hamilton (B-16 B-37 B-63).
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by randyo* on Tue Nov 19 03:54:49 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Mon Nov 18 18:21:55 2024.* As I recall, the buses going to the 165th St bus terminal in Jamaica were signed similarly “To 165th St Terminal” for all the routes coming from southeast Queens.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Tue Nov 19 09:25:28 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by randyo on Tue Nov 19 03:54:49 2024.* As I recall, the buses going to the 165th St bus terminal in Jamaica were signed similarly “To 165th St Terminal” for all the routes coming from southeast Queens. That's true. But I can't think of an instance where that would cause confusion/ambiguity. For example, the Q3 and Q83 (then Q3A) ran concurrently on a portion of Farmers Blvd., but only the Q3 went to the 165th St. Terminal.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Tue Nov 19 10:06:40 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Tue Nov 19 09:25:28 2024.* The B17 Remsen Ave Glenwood Branch would be signed “subway” in both directions because Eastern Parkway Utica was at one end and the L was at the other. The operator didn’t have to change the roll sign.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Italianstallion* on Tue Nov 19 10:32:39 2024, in response to "Bay Ridge / Shore Rd", posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 16:32:47 2024.* So email the MTA about it.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Tue Nov 19 14:50:44 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 19 10:06:40 2024.* The B17 Remsen Ave Glenwood Branch would be signed “subway” in both directions because Eastern Parkway Utica was at one end and the L was at the other. The operator didn’t have to change the roll sign. That's pretty lame IMHO. The purpose of a roll sign is not only to declare the final destination (or branch when there are multiple branches) but to let the customer know which direction the bus is going in. The then-M3 in Manhattan used to have a roll sign that merely said "3 - 49 & 50 CROSSTOWN" with no direction or destination stated. I guess they figured that if you were on 49th St. or 50th St. that was sufficient to tell you whether you were heading east or west.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Wed Nov 20 17:23:25 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Tue Nov 19 14:50:44 2024.* My favorite were the obscure streets and squares the NYCTA used to use in the 1950s and 60s like they didnt want new riders and the existing riders were members of an exclusive club. Also, remember, there were no transit maps around other than what you could purchase from Hagstrom or Rand McNally and those weren’t much good either. Of course no Google Maos to look up where these places are and no bus route numbers at bus stops. Also, the prefixes were not used. B1 Manhattan Beach to Oxford St. B2 Ave R to Ave U. B3 Ave U to Ave N. B4 to Harway B5 to Ryder St. B5 to Canal Ave. B6 to Harway or B6 to Bay 38 St. B7 to Ryder St. B8 to E 83 St. B8 to Bay 7 St. B9 to Dorman Sq. B12 to Jewel Sq. B16 to Woodruff. B17 to Subway B21 Brighton Beach to Oxford B21 to Bragg St. B34 Bay Ridge Ave to Harway. B36 Surf to Ave U. B41 to Civic Center B45 to Court Sq. B46 to Bridge Plaza B64 86 St (operating mostly on Bath Ave.) B68 to Bartel Pritchard Sq. Then the used Washington Plaza for instead of Williamsburg Br. Plaza for a number of years. And stopped using route names in the 70s and only used numbers and destinations.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by randyo* on Wed Nov 20 17:47:52 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Nov 20 17:23:25 2024.* The “Ryder St” destination always amused me since if you weren't from the neighborhood yo would probably not know that Ryder St was the block just west of Flatbush Ave where B5s from Bat Bch and B7s from ENY turned back. Eventually, both routes carried the destination “Flatbush Ave” even though they continued to actually turn at Ryder. The renaming of the combined B1 and B34 route as the B1 made sense at the time yet the suits in Service Planning did not seem to deem it appropriate to do the same thing with the combined B5 and B50, opting instead to create and entirely new number B82. Now that the B1 has been rerouted along 86th St and the B64 rerouted along Bay Ridge Ave it would make sense to rename the B/R Ave bus back to its original B34 number but that wasn’t done either. I don’t know what you think of your former coworkers in Operations Planning, but I honestly have little use for many of them due to the instances I just cited.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Wed Nov 20 19:31:33 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Nov 20 17:23:25 2024.* In Queens several Green Line routes (well, the Q10 and the Q11) used to have short runs terminating at "Old South Road." Old South Road wasn't on any map and in fact referred to North Conduit Avenue (the service road of the Belt Parkway).
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by randyo* on Thu Nov 21 00:36:26 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Wed Nov 20 19:31:33 2024.* According to maps of the Bkln Qns county lines, Old South Rd was the original name of the Queens portion of Pitkin Ave prior to the through routing of Pitkin from Bkln into Queens in preparation for the construction of the IND Pitkin ave subway into Queens past (dare I say it) 76th St.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Thu Nov 21 01:05:07 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by randyo on Thu Nov 21 00:36:26 2024.* I think that while Old South Road west of Cross Bay Blvd. was the present-day Pitkin Ave., east of CBB it followed the present-day path of Albert Road rather than the due-east portion of Pitkin that the Q11 travels down. While I used to have an ancient map of Queens (which showed among other things the full street grid including Lefferts Blvd. extending southward to Jamaica Bay before the expanded Idlewild Airport existed), which would confirm or deny this, I no longer have access to it and would be interested to see the historical maps to which you refer.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by randyo* on Thu Nov 21 02:00:28 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Thu Nov 21 01:05:07 2024.* I can’t remember where on line I found it, but I checked the NY City archives for some info and while I found a few intersting maps of the area, I couldn’t find maps that would have shown the exact year that Pitkin was through routed. There were maps from the 1920s before it was done and maps from the late 1940s after it was done but nothing from the late 1930s/early 1940s which would have been about the time it was done.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by randyo* on Thu Nov 21 02:07:27 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Thu Nov 21 01:05:07 2024.* I looked at the present day map of the area and it looks like that the present day Albert Rd is too far out of the way to have ever been connected to Old South Rd.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Thu Nov 21 06:58:39 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Nov 20 17:23:25 2024.* IMO the whole point of a route number is to give the route a short "name." So once you have a number there's no reason to talk about the "via" streets or the main artery the line uses (especially since most people boarding will probably already be along that main artery). Numbers are remarkably clear in setting the route apart from others, particularly when suffixes are avoided and every off-route variation has its own new number. Without the need to name the main road the signage can now focus exclusively on route number and destination, just like how most subway systems do it with their trains. However, I would add that for buses the destination should always be labeled with a main feature such as a plaza or major avenue (i.e. Flatbush Ave instead of Ryder St) to help people better visualize which way they're going. Just like I said in the OP -- the same label shouldn't be used for two locations that are over a mile apart from one another (Bay Ridge / Shore Rd).
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Thu Nov 21 09:50:21 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by randyo on Thu Nov 21 02:07:27 2024.* I am fairly sure, however, that the Q11 short run to "Old South Road" terminated at the point where Albert Road meets N. Conduit Ave. It could have merely been a convenient turnaround point. But there was also a Q10 "Old South Road" short run, so wherever Old South Road existed, it must have extended at least that far east, where there is no Pitkin Avenue.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Thu Nov 21 09:55:15 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Nov 21 06:58:39 2024.* If "once you have a number there's no reason to talk about the 'via' streets or the main artery the line uses", then there is no real ambiguity about "B## to Shore Road" or, to take another example, "Q## to City Line." But the generic route-numberless "To such-and-such a destination" signs violate that principle.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Dan* on Sat Nov 23 09:47:19 2024, in response to "Bay Ridge / Shore Rd", posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 16:32:47 2024.* Staten Island: 'S57 to New Dorp' and the 'SIM11 to New Dorp' both actually terminate on Ebbitts Avenue across from ShopRite. Technically in the New Dorp neighborhood, but to most Staten Islanders 'New Dorp' means the actual New Dorp Lane shopping area. Both the S57 and SIM11 should read to 'New Dorp - Ebbitts Avenue'. S59 to Tottenville, same situation. Should read 'S59 to Main Street - Tottenville'
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Sat Nov 23 09:56:24 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Dan on Sat Nov 23 09:47:19 2024.* The Q42 bore roll signs that read "42 TO SAYRES AVE" (this was back in the Sixties and I don't know what they read today) while it should have said Sayres Ave. and 180th St., since the route runs along several blocks of Sayres Ave. before terminating. The roll sign, if taken literally, would have implied termination at 111th Ave. and Sayres Ave.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Sat Nov 23 09:59:12 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Dan on Sat Nov 23 09:47:19 2024.* Should read 'S59 to Main Street - Tottenville' Not sure about that, since that might imply that it doesn't reach all the way to the tip of Tottenvillw at Craig Ave.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Dan* on Sat Nov 23 10:05:59 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Sat Nov 23 09:59:12 2024.* Map shows S59 terminating on Main Street in the Tottenville neighborhood. I think the destination reading should be as accurate as possible showing the exact street name wherever possible. S57 to 'Port Richmond - Richmond Terrace' instead of just 'Port Richmond. You get the idea.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Sat Nov 23 11:00:12 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by randyo on Wed Nov 20 17:47:52 2024.* They chose B82 because it operates on the same street as the B83 for a short distance. I would have just kept the B5 designation. I wanted to renumber the B34 as the B86, but at the time didn’t accept my proposal for a through 86 Street route. The only problem with B86 which actually was put in on the roll signs because they were considering it, is that the B68 would also have had to be changed because the people on Brighton Beach Ave with dixkexia would have mistaken the two routes. It’s a toss up if the B64 should have stayed the same or be renumbered to B34. I think it makes more sense to use B34 now instead of B55 for the JFK route. Those now in OP are not the same people as those when I was there and I don’t think too much of them for many reasons.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Sat Nov 23 11:04:17 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Thu Nov 21 09:50:21 2024.* I’ll have to check. I have a 1914 Queens map with all named streets and the old numbering system when 31 St was Second Ave with the 2Ave El on it. My favorite named street was Shoe and Leather St which is now a boring numbered place in Ozone Park.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Dan* on Sat Nov 23 11:46:27 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Dan on Sat Nov 23 10:05:59 2024.* On my way back from Stop-N-Shop I saw a 'S78 Richmond Ave', clear and concise!
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Sat Nov 23 21:49:01 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 23 11:04:17 2024.* If you find it, can you scan it and post a link to an image here?
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Italianstallion* on Sun Nov 24 14:02:48 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Snilcher on Thu Nov 21 09:50:21 2024.* There’s still a remnant of Old South road in South Ozone Park. Google Maps shows it.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by randyo* on Mon Nov 25 02:49:16 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by Italianstallion on Sun Nov 24 14:02:48 2024.* Yes. It’s about a block long and it is what is left over from the rest of Old South Rd that was renamed Pitkin Ave after Pitkin was through routed into Queens.
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Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd''
Posted by Snilcher* on Mon Nov 25 09:23:29 2024, in response to Re: ''Bay Ridge / Shore Rd'', posted by randyo on Mon Nov 25 02:49:16 2024.* That still suggests that the path between Cross Bay Blvd. and the current Old South Road is more likely to proceed along Albert Road (and thence to Conduit) than the present-day Pitkin Ave. east of CBB.
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