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| (146816) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by busdude2 on Thu Apr 23 05:39:30 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by rionOne on Wed Apr 22 22:18:20 2009. Ok thanks ! |
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| (146817) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by busdude2 on Thu Apr 23 05:41:14 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by kcram3500 on Wed Apr 22 21:38:20 2009. Thanks ! |
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| (146825) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by kcram3500 on Thu Apr 23 08:32:44 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by SJP7121 on Thu Apr 23 04:15:15 2009. Even if GM was swimming in cash, they'd never re-enter the bus business. Buses don't have the profit margin of other vehicles. Cars and trucks are sold by the manufacturer to the dealer s at the same price. Dealer A pays the same as Dealer B for the identical vehicle. Buses are sold directly to the customer at a low bid. To win the order, you may have to cut all your profit. That is why GM got out of the bus business in 1987... and why they will never go back. |
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Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 08:39:01 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by 33rd Street on Thu Apr 23 01:17:42 2009. You will love this book.It's a valuable information source...and a good investment. |
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| (146849) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by rionOne on Thu Apr 23 14:02:26 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by SJP7121 on Thu Apr 23 04:15:15 2009. As good as the RTS was under GM, to me, the RTS really didn't get solid until 1987 when TMC took it in, the best built RTSs have been between 1987 and 1996. THere is something really solid about the RTS during that 9 years span that TMC built them.RTS_Book made some valid points, but here is the OTHER valid point Millennium never officially keeled over. The just stopped "operating" to audit themselves. Hell, I just got the phone with Bruce Bell, Sales Manager for Millennium not even 2 minutes ago, whom I chatted with at length about Millennium. As stated right now the RTS Legend is available for purchase & build, the Low Floor RTS Extreme will be fully available shortly. That puts Millennium on the playing field for low floor orders, and honestly, since the Low Floor is based off the proven high floor, and being built by people who know the product. That to me, puts some solidity into Millenniums ability to build a bus. Whether they got or are getting ANY contracts, the fact still stands, the company is not dead and is building RTSs for anyone who wants one. They are vulnerable like any company out there now, money is tight.....Plan and Simple! |
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| (146850) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by rionOne on Thu Apr 23 14:03:27 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by rionOne on Thu Apr 23 14:02:26 2009. *Plain.....oh trust me, I enjoyed and don't regret screaming "YEEEEESSSS BITCHES, YES!"-Trevor |
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| (146856) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 14:25:32 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by rionOne on Thu Apr 23 14:02:26 2009. Where's the audit stand? Where do they stand in the Chapter 11 process?I'd love to see that Extreme come up "shortly," but I've been told that since 2005. Heck, for a Nova design that was originally built back almost eight years ago, a surprising amount of time has passed. |
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| (146857) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 14:29:32 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by rionOne on Thu Apr 23 14:02:26 2009. Agreed 100%; the RTS under TMC ownership was a phenomenal bus. |
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| (146859) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 14:53:38 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 14:29:32 2009. I don't know - by '91, things were getting shaky. 08s weren't what I'd call phenomenal, and from what I've heard, customer service was pretty poor in this era - one of the things that pissed off Long Beach so much it stopped ordering RTS'.And how much we can credit TMC with this bus is unknown - the 06 is a helluva bus (perhaps as close to a flawless RTS as one can get), but it was designed (and briefly manufactured) by GM. TMC did a good job of inheriting it and shifting production south, and that's not to be discounted, but engineering-wise, I'm not so sure what I think of the Roswellians. |
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| (146861) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by 33rd Street on Thu Apr 23 15:50:54 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 14:53:38 2009. The best out of all the TMC RTS buses were the 1994's. The majority of the B/O's I've spoken to a MJQ, they prefer the 1994 RTS. I have yet to see a '94 bus ever break down on me.I thought NovaBus did a pretty good job as well. I can't say about GMC because I've never got the chance to ride on one. |
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| (146871) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Apr 23 17:09:18 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by rionOne on Thu Apr 23 14:02:26 2009. They better get contracts or they are DEAD. Plain and simple. When you have to wait 3-6 months to get paid, a factor will only back your iron-clad contracts. |
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| (146875) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 18:27:29 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 14:53:38 2009. Didn't the customer service problems really begin when NovaBUS took over TMC? |
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| (146878) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 18:41:54 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 18:27:29 2009. No, I've even heard they were starting around '91-'92. Quite a few GM natives who made the switch down to Roswell expressed the sentiment that management, though they had the best of intentions, wasn't quite up to the task of running a stand-alone organization. I heard quite a bit of dislike of Scott Mintier, who was forced out of TMC only to end up as top dog at Nova. Fate is a cruel mistress. |
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| (146882) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 19:09:18 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 18:41:54 2009. This is very interesting.You're never too informed to learn something. |
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| (146898) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Apr 23 20:44:26 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 14:53:38 2009. The build quality though began to go down noticeably near the Nova Bus end. |
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| (146900) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 20:53:21 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Apr 23 20:44:26 2009. Maybe in NYC, but I know folks who ran TMC 08s that weren't too impressed with their reliability (COUGHElPaso,AustinCOUGH). |
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Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 21:46:04 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RTS_book on Thu Apr 23 20:53:21 2009. What was the verdict on the RTS-08 from its pilot city, Chicago? |
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| (146945) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Fri Apr 24 00:31:09 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by Bingham C50 on Thu Apr 23 21:46:04 2009. Hit or miss. Overall a decent bus (no A/C to mess with at first), but early glitches with the wheelchair lift. |
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| (146954) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by Flxiblemetro on Fri Apr 24 02:34:24 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by JAzumah on Thu Apr 23 17:09:18 2009. Millennium should try getting contracts from Golden Gate Transit and a small TA called Placer County Transit out here in Northen California. Just to you all know, Place Couty transit currently operate CNG Orion Vs and some old diesel Bluebirds. |
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| (146979) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 24 10:16:55 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by JAzumah on Thu Apr 23 17:09:18 2009. They better get contracts or they are DEAD.Well, yeah. Hard to pay the bills if you aren't selling any product. |
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| (146982) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 10:37:21 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 24 10:16:55 2009. In today's world, it seems that a bus builder needs a backer with deep pockets - either a parent company or an investment firm - that is willing to put up the money and even subsidize short-term losses in pursuit of eventual profits. |
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| (146985) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Fri Apr 24 11:06:47 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 10:37:21 2009. That's what GM did - and there were some *huge* losses incurred during the '80s. |
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| (146990) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 12:22:03 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 10:37:21 2009. A bus builder needs to have a factoring company in place to protect them. Cash flow is a killer.They also need to price more responsibility. You cannot build a bus on 20% gross margin because you have no money to do research with or fix things. A lot of manufacturers are low bidding, making them short on cash. |
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| (147003) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 15:54:57 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RTS_book on Fri Apr 24 11:06:47 2009. That's what GM did - and there were some *huge* losses incurred during the '80s.It was the inability to absorb short-term losses in the mid-1990's that led to Flxible's demise - they had some profitable contracts in the pipeline, but had to fulfill some unprofitable contracts first (due to underbidding competitors to win bids) and the banks refused to lend them any more money. By comprison, Orion had financial troubles at the same time but were picked up truck manufacturer Western Star and gained the financial help to get back on their feet. Nobody came to Flxible's rescue. |
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| (147004) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 15:58:33 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 12:22:03 2009. A bus builder needs to have a factoring company in place to protect them. Cash flow is a killer.I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that a builder like Orion or Nova that is owned by a huge international corporation would finance internally rather than using a factor. |
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| (147006) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 16:21:27 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 15:58:33 2009. You would probably be right.However, I have a feeling that Millennium only had a standard line in place or they way underbid the NJT contract. Then again, it would be easier for me to hire Millennium to build buses on a factoring line than for them to do it in-house. Purchase order financiers would prefer if their client didn't touch the product because they could "benefit" even if they did not perform. |
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| (147008) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Fri Apr 24 16:53:13 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 15:54:57 2009. I recommend you pick up Robert Ebert's book "Flxible: A History of the Bus and the Company," if you haven't already. There were actually more corporate shenanigans going on behind Flxible, most of which were quasi-legal, at best. |
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| (147052) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Sat Apr 25 00:03:30 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RTS_book on Fri Apr 24 16:53:13 2009. I actually have the book - you're right that there were some questionable practices going on, but the author also points to Flxible underbidding the competition to win orders even though they weren't going to make money on those orders. That was a tough time in the transit bus industry, and apparently management thought they could keep the factory going and ride out the tough times, and the money ran out. Maybe they would have survived if they weren't playing accounting games behind the scenes and had more funds available in reserve. |
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| (147053) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sat Apr 25 00:19:29 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by RailBus63 on Fri Apr 24 15:54:57 2009. Flxible was owned by General Automotive Corp from 1983. They did indeed come to Flx's rescue at that time. Flx would have been gone much sooner. Guess the rescue plans didn't quite pan out.jrc |
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| (147095) | |
Re: Millennium Transit Services |
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Posted by RTS_book on Sat Apr 25 13:15:53 2009, in response to Re: Millennium Transit Services, posted by r17-6599 on Sat Apr 25 00:19:29 2009. GAC did a number of questionable accounting practices, some of which siphoned money from Flxible, not sending money to it. |
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